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[Wraith] Ghosts in space??

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  • #16
    This is a fascinating idea and I completely missed it when it happened.

    My first thought is that if fetters keep Wraiths from going into space, that won't stop the ones who have resolved their fetters.

    My second thought is that if fetters have the kind of pull to keep Wraiths from going into space, what happens when we get someone with an in service shuttle as a fetter? Are they pulled into the sky whenever it launches?

    I think in most cases I would treat it like the Shadowlands, just with all the dangers of outer space. But if you want a really horrifying thought, maybe there are other mouths to Oblivion up there hidden against the blackness of space.


    Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Papa Bear View Post
      My thinking on this one would be that The Tempest would jack with the sense of direction on the launch. It would look like it's pointed into space, but it's really pointed at a deeper part of The Tempest and straight towards Oblivion. Now, there could be plenty of adventures to be had in a section of The Tempest that seems to be outer space, but further exploration would eventually land in The Labyrinth and the Wraiths would either plasm themselves and run or go check it out. Anyone looney enough to launch the Relic shuttle would probably take the latter option.
      This.

      And the Shadowlands aren't the Solar System. In fact, in White Wolf, even the Solar System isn't the Solar System. It's a weird-up of Umbral Realms that don't make a hell of a lot of sense when you try to tack them onto the Solar System, if what you are looking for is a sorta straightforward "I board my rocketship and go up into LEO, make the appropriate transitions and get into lunar orbit or the solar plane and move off to do the same dance when I get to whatever planet or other celestial body suits my fancy."

      (Believe me, I had to go through a thorough house cleaning and redecoration fit to try to set up a "Mages In Space" Son of Ether game where we could have major plot arcs fighting the Technocratic Union and Nephandi scream-ships amongst the moons of Jupiter.... which doesn't work at ALL if you crack the Book of Worlds.)

      But, back to Wraith, the Shadowlands are a thin skin on an endless and bounded (or boundless and ended) Tempest. The Tempest is just as much UP and it is down. Get your Relic space shuttle off the ground (how much Pathos is THAT going to take? Maybe get a Sandman to strap in a Changeling childling's soul while dreaming of being an astronaut?) and you are heading straight into the Tempest. Not to the Moon or Mars. Gird yourself with all relevant Argos coolness.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ajax View Post

        This.

        And the Shadowlands aren't the Solar System. In fact, in White Wolf, even the Solar System isn't the Solar System. It's a weird-up of Umbral Realms that don't make a hell of a lot of sense when you try to tack them onto the Solar System, if what you are looking for is a sorta straightforward "I board my rocketship and go up into LEO, make the appropriate transitions and get into lunar orbit or the solar plane and move off to do the same dance when I get to whatever planet or other celestial body suits my fancy."

        (Believe me, I had to go through a thorough house cleaning and redecoration fit to try to set up a "Mages In Space" Son of Ether game where we could have major plot arcs fighting the Technocratic Union and Nephandi scream-ships amongst the moons of Jupiter.... which doesn't work at ALL if you crack the Book of Worlds.)

        But, back to Wraith, the Shadowlands are a thin skin on an endless and bounded (or boundless and ended) Tempest. The Tempest is just as much UP and it is down. Get your Relic space shuttle off the ground (how much Pathos is THAT going to take? Maybe get a Sandman to strap in a Changeling childling's soul while dreaming of being an astronaut?) and you are heading straight into the Tempest. Not to the Moon or Mars. Gird yourself with all relevant Argos coolness.
        Oh, in Mage, space isn't space, but the other games don't necessarily hold to that, and I don't know why Wraith would require Mage's take on things..

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

          Oh, in Mage, space isn't space, but the other games don't necessarily hold to that, and I don't know why Wraith would require Mage's take on things..
          Then just go with Wraith.

          The Tempest is up. It's down. It's on the other side of every crack in a wall and the bottom of every deep hole.

          That's what's been explicitly stated in the rules. If you go down the river you are just as likely to end up in Stygia as anywhere on map. Some Relic trains go from New York to Philidelphia to DC, others from San Diego to Seattle, but all of them end up in Stygia at the End of Line. Three-dimensional space in the Skinlands is only the thin scum on the surface of the froth of flotsam and jetsam that is winding down to the End of Everything.

          What is Outer Space when you're dead? It's the same place as everywhere else that's behind the scenery in front of you call the Shadowlands. It's in nightmares and your fears of what comes AFTER the hereafter.

          Go up. Go down. Go down the river. Listen to the little voice nagging you at the back of your head. There's utterly no difference. It all ends in the same place.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
            Oh, in Mage, space isn't space
            What? Yes it is!

            We spent a whole lot of Quintessence and effort to make that happen, believe you me, and we're not going to let it slip back that easily.



            Ahem. More on topic, IIRC, the realms of death don't actually extend past the Near Horizon metaphysically. Though you'd be hard-pressed to tell from the Underworld given how spacey-wacey it is. So in order to get to space, especially given the lack of death to anchor the Shadowlands (due to a lack of terrestrial life), the Wraith needs to either be in one of the other spiritual reflections, or in the Skinlands. Those blur together past the Far Horizon, but the Skinlands do extend to the asteroid belt at least according to certain recent books.

            Past that point... well, a cold empty void might be preferable to a lone, unprotected soul encountering some of the horrors of the Deep...

            We're still working on it, okay?

            Though if the ST wanted, they could say that anything with an active 'tie' to Earth and the presence of death causes it to 'connect' to the Shadowlands, which might provide a way for wraiths to 'hitch' rides onto places where humans can go. Yay haunted space stations (not actually yay)!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Andreas Rayne View Post
              Yeah, I had a similar thought regarding Fetters. They tie you to the Shadowlands so they must surely exert some kind of pull on your corpus. And I was so looking forward to 'Wraiths in Space!!!' Bit of a bugger really...
              Put one's fetters inside a space shuttle and let's see what kind of wackiness ensues.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                Put one's fetters inside a space shuttle and let's see what kind of wackiness ensues.
                Ice Cube and John Carpenter seen growing very concerned.

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                • #23
                  Hm, could that cause a transformation in the basic nature of the Wraith since they would no longer be 'close' to the Entropy that defines the existence of Wraiths? I am just wondering if they would automatically Transcend, be shredded by the Horizon, or be transformed into a different type of spirit?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                    Hm, could that cause a transformation in the basic nature of the Wraith since they would no longer be 'close' to the Entropy that defines the existence of Wraiths? I am just wondering if they would automatically Transcend, be shredded by the Horizon, or be transformed into a different type of spirit?
                    If so, Wraith just became a rather silly game. Trascendence is "up" now. Just get up high enough and all your worries will shred and fall away and you will become one with the light!

                    How high does it have to be? Are wraiths learning Inhabit en masse to jump into the components of every junk rocket launch that takes a satellite into orbit? Now I see the sole purpose of Stygia isn't railroads, it's taking every scrap of Relic to build a Shadowlands Tower of Babel to get past the tropopause or LEO or whatever the "Trancendence Line" is.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ajax View Post

                      If so, Wraith just became a rather silly game. Trascendence is "up" now. Just get up high enough and all your worries will shred and fall away and you will become one with the light!

                      How high does it have to be? Are wraiths learning Inhabit en masse to jump into the components of every junk rocket launch that takes a satellite into orbit? Now I see the sole purpose of Stygia isn't railroads, it's taking every scrap of Relic to build a Shadowlands Tower of Babel to get past the tropopause or LEO or whatever the "Trancendence Line" is.
                      That said, some weird, big renegade/heretic society dedicated to some variant of this belief/conceit could make for some pretty interesting narrative fodder.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                        That said, some weird, big renegade/heretic society dedicated to some variant of this belief/conceit could make for some pretty interesting narrative fodder.
                        Yeah. I realized that while writing it, but decided to let the core idea stand for itself.

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                        • #27
                          Now I really want to do something with a Heretic UFO cult.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
                            Now I really want to do something with a Heretic UFO cult.
                            Just "live" the right kind of post-life and there's no need to seek Transcendence! Transcendence will come for YOU!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ajax View Post
                              Originally posted by Caitiff Primogen View Post
                              Now I really want to do something with a Heretic UFO cult.

                              Just "live" the right kind of post-life and there's no need to seek Transcendence! Transcendence will come for YOU!
                              One could even mix and match them with the Thal'Hun society from Sorcerer 1st edition (that were kind of ganked hard & replaced with some "truth is out there, we'll show you!" nuts in Revised, unfortunately).

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                              • #30
                                I'm certain that I've read in some book about spectres in the Tempest being able to get thrown through nihils into what is effectively the Deep Umbra and come back earthward into the other levels of the Umbra to cause mischief. Not sure if it was in The Book of Worlds from the Mage line, Sea of Shadows, or some other Wraith book.

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