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  • #16
    I guess the thing that I find challenging is understanding the nature of the shadowlands. For all intents and purposes, the shadowlands is an alien world which shares some of its living space with our own.

    If I were a wraith walking around your typical necropolis, what would I see?

    Do wraiths often move among the quick, or do they tend to avoid them?

    Would I see a lot of shadowlands buildings crammed in between skinlands ones?

    What happens when one of the quick takes a stroll through an area where a wraith has built a building? Does the quick just pass through the building, or does he crash through the wall?

    If I saw two objects in front of me, could I tell quickly which object was a shadowlands object, and which was a skinlands object?

    Can I tell the difference between an object made out of plasm, or whether it is a relic, artifact, or something else by looking at it?

    I hate to ask, but how does the Stygian economy work? What are they paying all these legionnaires to make them do what they do?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Froggy711 View Post
      I guess the thing that I find challenging is understanding the nature of the shadowlands. For all intents and purposes, the shadowlands is an alien world which shares some of its living space with our own.

      If I were a wraith walking around your typical necropolis, what would I see?

      Do wraiths often move among the quick, or do they tend to avoid them?

      Would I see a lot of shadowlands buildings crammed in between skinlands ones?

      What happens when one of the quick takes a stroll through an area where a wraith has built a building? Does the quick just pass through the building, or does he crash through the wall?

      If I saw two objects in front of me, could I tell quickly which object was a shadowlands object, and which was a skinlands object?

      Can I tell the difference between an object made out of plasm, or whether it is a relic, artifact, or something else by looking at it?

      I hate to ask, but how does the Stygian economy work? What are they paying all these legionnaires to make them do what they do?
      THIS!

      Actually A lot of these questions I was asking in a sense in a new thread I started, but I posted it before I saw this post of yours froggy.

      As for those last few questions though, Plasm tends to scream a little and the economy is fueled by people soul forged into coin. Who also scream a little.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Froggy711 View Post
        I guess the thing that I find challenging is understanding the nature of the shadowlands. For all intents and purposes, the shadowlands is an alien world which shares some of its living space with our own.

        If I were a wraith walking around your typical necropolis, what would I see?

        Do wraiths often move among the quick, or do they tend to avoid them?

        Would I see a lot of shadowlands buildings crammed in between skinlands ones?

        What happens when one of the quick takes a stroll through an area where a wraith has built a building? Does the quick just pass through the building, or does he crash through the wall?

        If I saw two objects in front of me, could I tell quickly which object was a shadowlands object, and which was a skinlands object?

        Can I tell the difference between an object made out of plasm, or whether it is a relic, artifact, or something else by looking at it?

        I hate to ask, but how does the Stygian economy work? What are they paying all these legionnaires to make them do what they do?
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        A general question for you:

        How do you view Orpheus as you're working on Wr20?
        Yeah these questions I'd like to hear answers for as well. Especially Orpheus to be honest. I love Orpheus as just about as much as WtO and I've been trying to get a game of it started for years, partly because it's a little less intimidating than WtO and I know if I can get them interesting in Orpheus I can get them into WtO.


        Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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        • #19
          No questions, just very, very, VERY happy to see Rich Dansky back for Wraith. In my opinion, there is no Warith without him.


          - If you must be ridiculous, I must ridicule you.
          - Those that can give up essential liberties in exchange for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin

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          • #20
            Yay, Wraith!


            While I think Wraith should be depressing and the setting should be grim, it needs to be more accessible. I'm pretty new to Wraith; I only grabbed the corebook a few weeks ago and that was mostly because I'm trying to write a fanbook for VtM Necromancy. It's a great book, and I love the art! But the setting is hard to get involved in.

            Why? Well, there are no splats, for one, and that's something that gives every other game an immediate organizational plan. Wraith hasn't got that. It has Legions, which apparently all Wraiths are in but not all of them care about? So how do you differentiate between "real" Legionnaires and everyone else that's just busy doing their thing? The Guilds don't exist anymore, except they totally do, but only some of them and only kinda? How is that possibly something you can sell people on?

            The basic idea is cool. You're a wraith, and that's it. There's no possibility of new people "Oh, I wanna be a Gangrel!" and stopping there. They have to make a full-fledged person, because there's no splat to take over the concept. Cool! Except.. there's also no splat to provide any guidance. There's these two things, Legions and Guilds, that could work, but don't. The setting is fighting itself. I'd like to see the Hierarchy be primarily a plot device. Legion membership optional for PCs, and have it mean something. It means they have jobs, duties and responsibilities. They joined the army, after all. But there needs to be civilian jobs and careers: the Guilds. The game already treats the Guilds as its splats. There are Guildbooks, after all, but not Legionbooks. Just GO with that!

            Please, please make the changes that Wraith needs to be accessible, easy to play and still keep its original themes and moods. Don't stick with the WW baggage of "NEVER RETCON ANYTHING EVER". Don't say that the Guilds reformed in 2001 or whatever. Just CHANGE the setting so that the Guilds EXIST. Or CHANGE the setting so that whatever other awesome idea you have works. Don't try to avoid retcons when they make your game better. WW did that for years. Rather than dump something stupid, like the Thulsa-Doom-Setites, they tried to come up with a way to incorporate Thulsa Doom into actual Egyptian mythology. Instead of saying "Maybe a Clan that's eeeeevil for eeeeeevil is a bad idea" they tried to transition "eeeeevil" into a form of anarchy.

            Argh. It was such a mess! Please don't make those mistakes. If there is something that doesn't work about Wraith, then just change it. Don't try to explain in character how the new, working solution evolved from the old, non-working problem. That's dumb. Just FIX the problem, and either pretend the old way never existed or flat out say it never was that way. Your real-world decision to change Broken Mechanic 3 does not need an in-character justification.


            I'm a professor! Why is no one listening to me?!

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            • #21
              Telgar: There is a Legion book. It's called Book of Legions. Maybe you mean it needs a bigger book? Other than that I agree with everything else you've said. Especially about Retconning. Since Wraith didn't get the Revised treatment, I don't think it had the chance to evolve the way the other previous systems did, for better or worse.


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              • #22
                A comment of the way things are: Wraith is a spectacular game, and is uniquely designed to tell fascinatingly powerful stories of the PCs personal struggles. The constant turmoil with the Shadow, the fixation on Passions and Fetters, and the general sense of unfinished business let characters shine. However, WtO has the bulk of its text dedicated to Shadowlands society; the structure and conflict of the Hierarchy, various Renegades and Heretics, and the forces of Oblivion. You get this funny contrast where the star of the game is personal stories and the things people have left behind in the Skinlands, but the bulk of the written material (and with it, many games) is instead focused on this sort of large-scale other world that Wraiths inhabit.

                I adore Wraith's setting, but more love given to those small, painful, personal stories would be great. I want less "stoic Doomslayers throwing themselves at hordes of Spectres" and "Stygian politics" and more direction given towards how a recently-dead (the average PC) Wraith deals with the people and places they've left behind.


                Remi. she/her. game designer.

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                • #23
                  Mr. Dansky, I write as a long-time Wraith fan.

                  1. Where is the Wr20 project in terms of decisions? Have important decisions already been made about things like the 6th Maelstrom, Charon, etc.?

                  2. Please speak to the differences between Wr20 and the Wraith 2nd edition book.

                  3. Can wraiths and specters twerk?

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                  • #24
                    Some quick hits before I get dragged back into the word mines (longer answers soon, I promise)

                    1-I love me some Orpheus. Lucien Soulban and I go way, way back, and I really enjoy his work. It was a pleasure and an honor to contribute to the first Orpheus book, and I think there's a lot that's really great in the game. I'm certainly not going to ignore it when it comes time to have the rubber hit the road on Wraith 20; that being said, the focus of Wraith is going to be - big shock reveal here - Wraith.

                    2-Favorite Guild that didn't get a book? Probably Solicitors, because I had all sorts of deeply wicked stuff planned for them back in the day that never saw the light of day.

                    3-General work philosophy: Folks, I love Wraith. I am thrilled beyond words to be getting the chance to engage with it - and with you - again, and to take on the challenge of some of my own artistic Fetters. And I want Wraith to be the best game it can possibly be, which means fixing mistakes and potentially making changes to make the game a cleaner play experience. That doesn't mean the game is going to suddenly become more pastel than My Little Pony, and it doesn't mean that wholesale sweeping changes are coming for change's sake. It means exactly what I said, which is that I want Wraith to be the best game it can be - and not for it to be turned into something else that ain't Wraith. If that means rethinking Shadowguiding rules /and/ storytelling guidance to make sure players get more enjoyment out of that aspect of the game - and don't immediately start trying to flush each others' characters down the nearest nihil - that's the sort of positive change that improves the game without changing its essence. That's what I'm looking to do, and as I told Rich T., I've spent 14 years thinking about this. I know that not everyone is going to be absolutely ecstatic with absolutely every tweak that's made, and not every concern is going to get addressed, because that's the nature of the beast (and The Beast, for all of you Wraith-l folk still out there). But please trust me when I say that every change and decision is going to be carefully thought through, and that the only intention is make Wraith 20th magnificent.

                    4-Twerking is a tool of Oblivion.

                    Deadguy out.

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                    • #25
                      First off, I cannot express the joy I felt the moment I first read that Wraith 20th is a happening thing... And then have to exceed that joy the moment I read that The Deadguy was gonna be involved in it once more. Here are my thoughts for this latest project...

                      1) Present all the Guildbooks as mini-Guildbooks and attempt to cram as much detail on the individual Guilds as possible. Cuz, who knows if/when the opportunity will arise to fill these out?

                      2) One big critique about Wraith I remember is in mixed parties that exist primarily in the Skinlands, the Wraith PCs tend to be the ones with the biggest disadvantages. Maybe make those Arcanoi that deal the heaviest with the Skinlands somehow the most accessible to use.

                      3) Clarify the layers of Underworld existence (ie., Tempest, Shadowlands, Stygia, Far SHores, etc.)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by RealDeadguy View Post
                        Demon Cat:
                        Have you been listening in on the phone calls I've been having with Rich Thomas? Just curious :-)
                        I clearly have no idea what you are talking about, am in no way affiliated with the NSA


                        Demon Cat

                        Illuminated Dark Ages character sheets and more

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                        • #27
                          Heavy Arms: I believe you've asked this question of Rich before in another thread.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Froggy711 View Post
                            I guess the thing that I find challenging is understanding the nature of the shadowlands. For all intents and purposes, the shadowlands is an alien world which shares some of its living space with our own.

                            If I were a wraith walking around your typical necropolis, what would I see?

                            Do wraiths often move among the quick, or do they tend to avoid them?

                            Would I see a lot of shadowlands buildings crammed in between skinlands ones?

                            What happens when one of the quick takes a stroll through an area where a wraith has built a building? Does the quick just pass through the building, or does he crash through the wall?
                            Let's see if I can help...

                            The Shadowlands overlays (underlays?) the Skinlands - the physical world. Each necropolis is different, like each mortal city is different. Ends of Empire has a good example with London(?) and of course Necropolis: Atlanta has... Atlanta. As for moving among the Quick, well, depends on how heavily populated by the living the area is. Structures in the Shadowlands are a reflection of the Skinlands, and act... strangely. A derelict warehouse where addicts used drugs and overdosed that was demolished to make room for a new skyscraper might look like that dilapidated warehouse for the first few floors, then be modern steel and glass after that. Wraithly structures are often built away from high traffic, as the concentration of ghostly energy usually lowers the Shroud in the area - giving it the rumor of being "haunted." Most living that pass through a building in the Shadowlands feel the same kind of chill that they do when passing through a "haunted" spot.
                            If I saw two objects in front of me, could I tell quickly which object was a shadowlands object, and which was a skinlands object?

                            Can I tell the difference between an object made out of plasm, or whether it is a relic, artifact, or something else by looking at it?

                            I hate to ask, but how does the Stygian economy work? What are they paying all these legionnaires to make them do what they do?
                            Are you a wraith? Wraiths can tell the difference between Skinlands and Shadowlands objects - things in the Shadowlands appear slightly more "real" while Skinlands objects usually have a bit of fuzz or haze around them. As for detailing the means of an object's creation... Soulsteel looks and feels different than most things. Divining whether it is an Artifact, Relic, or something else (I believe) requires Arcanos. And as for what they are paying the Legionnaires, well... coin. Soulsteel coin, oboli, along with weapons, armor, and lodgings.

                            Cheers!


                            If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
                            'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

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                            • #29
                              i think it would be easier if the W20 had a map or an exemplification of a map.


                              Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
                              ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
                              Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Crowley View Post
                                i think it would be easier if the W20 had a map or an exemplification of a map.
                                Though hopefully Much better than the Umbra Map. >.<


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