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  • Pathos Bullets

    This comes from a recent Wraith character I made, they had enough oboli to buy a gun relic, but no bullets. I know that if a relic needs to 'work' if there is some chemical component etc in it, that the wraith must use their Pathos to make the thing work, such as using it in a combustion engine to make a car relic drive.

    I was wondering if it was possible for a Wraith to fire a gun relic and use their Pathos points as rounds for the thing. My character basically carries this gun on them, yet is lax to use it. They're ex-military and they have a lot of hang-ups about their gun, so of course it formed into a relic for the wraith. I see also that the Shadow taunts the wraith to use it, to fall back into old habits... Then I realised another thing that would happen would be the Shadow is essentially getting the wraith to use Pathos and it's something the Shadow would use to drain Pathos when in Cartharsis and also generally being a nuisance and torment to their Psyche by shooting others.

    However, it is still an empty chamber. But then I wonder on how car relics run when they don't refuel with petrol and use Pathos, so could a wraith use Pathos as rounds for their firearms, or do they need to somehow get bullet relics? Because Pathos is finite and so even if they do use it, there's not going to be a bullet storm happening... How would you rule this?

  • #2
    Relic firearms require Pathos ammunition, most commonly in the form of Soulfire crystals. The whole thing is written up in Buried Secrets, page 14.

    Cheers!


    If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
    'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

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    • #3
      The following is what WtO says, what Doomslayers implies, and what I actually do:

      Wraith: The Oblivion, Second Edition
      On its own, a relic gun needs to be “activated” with Pathos. Then, relic bullets have to be loaded into it.
      “Note that ammunition must be obtained above and beyond the Pathos cost for these weapons,” (WtO, Second Edition, P. 261, Relic Firearms Sidebar.

      Doomslayers: Into the Labyrinth
      One the other hand, the write-up for “Soulfire and Souled Weapons” in Doomslayers (p. 41) makes it sound like you can mount a soulfire crystal onto (into?) a relic as an ammo-battery. [I think the information on soulfire crystals found in Doomslayers is the same found in Buried Secrets, as /nothing/ suggests.]

      My House Rule
      Hidden in Spoilers.
      YMMV.

      Preface
      I really like the character of the Judge (iirc) from The Frighteners. I like the idea that a ghost who had guns in life has guns in the underworld. The Judge didn’t carry two six-shooters; he carried the memory of carrying two six-shooters. In the scenes in which he uses his sidearms (with extreme prejudice), he never reloads. Imagining him as a Wraith character, I think he’s firing his memory of bullets. This train of thought leads to weird philosophical musing about personal experiences affecting platonic ideals, but the bottom line is, “it’s cool that ghosts can use the crap out of their ghost-guns.”

      -Relic Guns-
      If a character has the relic of his own firearm (one that he used and was near-and-dear to him in life), I let the character spend Pathos (based on the chart in WtO Second, p. 261) to activate and fire the weapon for a scene. Yes, a scene.

      In other words, your character spends the Pathos and he can use his weapon for the entire scene without fear of running out of ammo.

      Souled Weapons (like in Buried Secrets and Doomslayers) are used when the relic weapons don’t have a proper owner (or if the rightful owner has met with “industrial expediency”).

      The trick with this House Rule is during character creation. The idea is that the weapon is an integral part to the wraith’s identity, however small. Some players may be tempted to tack-on an assault rifle to their Librarian-With-Unrequited-Love concepts.


      This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
      (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
      ").

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      • #4
        I forgot about the writeup in Doomslayers. It's not exactly the same - the one in Buried Secrets is cleaner and more objective, as it's not written in the voice of the narrator from Doomslayers - but they're really close enough. So, yeah, "souled" just means it has a slot/mount/whatever where you can insert/set/whatever a soulfire crystal to use, but I find Nazfool's suggestion intriguing. Of course, I'm rather conservative with regard to powers in my games, so I might rule that a high-level Relic, like 4 or more likely 5.

        Cheers!


        If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
        'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

        Comment


        • #5
          Interesting... I'm using Wraith 1st edition atm, I have the early run with the book, basically Love Beyond Death, Haunts, Midnight Express, Necropolis:Atlanta and the Sea of Shadows (the latter was an amazing read btw!). I'll invest in the Player's Guide soon enough.

          Basically, I haven't read every single inch of the 1st edition, though I never really saw a ruling on it. I'll likely go back and check through and think on my character some. They have a Nietzschean (sp?) Tightrope as their Artifact, with a look to Transcendance in the future. Relics also don't seem to be ranked in 1st, just Artifacts... Though the Wealth background offers Oboli and there's a pricelist, though short, of things they can buy in the Shadowlands, including thralls if wanted.

          Soulfire crystals/Souled weapons rings a bell though, fairly sure they get mentioned somewhere in the 1st edition corebook...

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          • #6
            I'm not gonna argue the rules so much as the INTENT here...

            The intent is that a relic weapon should be a relic weapon, and it is useless as a weapon if it cannot be used as a weapon on the other side. That is, the relic sword that was part of Col. Hathmoore's uniform when he fell in battle is still a sword when he arrives in the Underworld, but the beloved hunting rifle of Mr Swerdson's youth, the one that he took on every outing including that fateful evening in the winter of '44, is just a pretty metal and wooden stick in the underworld? That sounds wrong... Like when a Storyteller said that my character had a shotgun, but because I didn't SPECIFICALLY say anything about shells, I had no way of doing more than hit attackers with my heavy club.

            I'd go with a notion that YOUR relic gun can shoot without you needing specific ammo, but one bought or stolen or traded would NOT work for a 'new' owner without further work. As Nazfool suggests, it comes down to origin more than hard-and-fast rules.


            B.I.G. Bird spreads the word: Anybody with a heart votes love

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            • #7
              I like Nazfool's idea. I'm not keen on the idea of limitless bullets, cool or not, though.

              What I would go for is something in between: one Pathos charges the weapon with the equivalent of one magazine or full load. The wraith would still have to polish, clean and reload his beloved weapon as he did in life, but he finds the memory of such things replenishes his supply.

              Because there's also little information given on a wraith's clothes and possessions, I might also allow a wraith who has slumbered to recover, repair or refuel those things on her person to the same degree to which she has healed. So a wraith who heals all lost corpus levels would also have a fully regenerated suit of armour or a fully replenished clip if she normally carries those things anyway.

              That way, the cost of firing relic weapons isn't too prohibitive, and nor is it too easy.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                I like Nazfool's idea. I'm not keen on the idea of limitless bullets, cool or not, though.

                What I would go for is something in between: one Pathos charges the weapon with the equivalent of one magazine or full load. The wraith would still have to polish, clean and reload his beloved weapon as he did in life, but he finds the memory of such things replenishes his supply.

                Because there's also little information given on a wraith's clothes and possessions, I might also allow a wraith who has slumbered to recover, repair or refuel those things on her person to the same degree to which she has healed. So a wraith who heals all lost corpus levels would also have a fully regenerated suit of armour or a fully replenished clip if she normally carries those things anyway.

                That way, the cost of firing relic weapons isn't too prohibitive, and nor is it too easy.

                I love that idea. The idea that they have to go through the motions concerning the care and love of their weapon really adds another layer to it, and definitely would help keep things interesting. Every dot of pathos is a "magazine". Fitting.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Dreamweaver View Post


                  I love that idea. The idea that they have to go through the motions concerning the care and love of their weapon really adds another layer to it, and definitely would help keep things interesting. Every dot of pathos is a "magazine". Fitting.
                  I see it as similar to a mage's paradigm. They can't just magick things out of thin air. A mage has to go through the motions of whatever she believes. In this case, the wraith goes through the motions of what he remembers. Otherwise, inexhaustible supplies of bullets are prone to abuse and don't make sense (the mortal would have had to reload and clean his weapon, and the wraith would most certainly remember that fact if he had a strong enough connection with it to bring it across the Shroud).

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                  • #10
                    I never really thought of “unlimited ammo for a scene” as overpowered, but the primary reason I did that was to cut down on book-keeping. In other games, I have no desire to keep track of every round fired for every character. In Wraith, however, the scarcity of items is part of the setting. I didn't want to lose that feeling of "relic guns are special" but I didn't want to force the players into epic quests just to find relic ammo for a ghostly Glock. When I first tried this out, I _did_ try a pathos-per-"charge" sort of rule; it lead to players wanting to [implausibly] have relic high-capacity weapons over more character-relevant choices.


                    This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
                    (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
                    ").

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nazfool View Post
                      I never really thought of “unlimited ammo for a scene” as overpowered, but the primary reason I did that was to cut down on book-keeping. In other games, I have no desire to keep track of every round fired for every character. In Wraith, however, the scarcity of items is part of the setting. I didn't want to lose that feeling of "relic guns are special" but I didn't want to force the players into epic quests just to find relic ammo for a ghostly Glock. When I first tried this out, I _did_ try a pathos-per-"charge" sort of rule; it lead to players wanting to [implausibly] have relic high-capacity weapons over more character-relevant choices.
                      That's a good point but I don't think your solution actually fixes that problem. If a player chooses lots of firepower as part of his concept, that's balanced out by the Background and trait cost of such weapons. Furthermore, you as the Storyteller can rule whether or not to allow such weapons as part of a concept. If a player wants to sink points in an automatic weapon, and then more in the relevant traits that would justify that in the wraith's mortal life (Abilities, Backgrounds, maybe Merits that indicate where the weapon came from), while making sure their concept fits - then that's fine. Such a character will inevitably miss out in other ways (compare him to the player who spends all her Background dots on Eidolon and all her freebies on Arcanoi, for example), so I'm happy allowing that if the character is well developed.

                      I'll admit, it's never really been a huge issue for me in games (few players took guns). I always ruled that wraithly guns inflict bashing damage, anyway. Meanwhile, someone else might spend a few Background dots on an Artifact sword that deals aggravated damage, which they plausibly gained as part of a Legion (that character is also required to take traits that justify the weapon, but those traits might be more relevant to everyday wraithly existence than ones that justify things brought over from life). That would, in theory, create more problems - although a working Artifact gun is easier to obtain than a working Relic gun, as per the fluff and the RAW (Artifacts are designed to work by their nature, while Relics aren't always functional).

                      Your way still has the drawback of that character who really insists on having the most firepower just getting an automatic that fires multiple rounds a turn - except now they can do that for an entire scene instead of just a few turns. The problem here is not just the player gaming the system but also the loss of scarcity of resources as a theme. In my opinion, the scarcity theme of Wraith adds to the horror (via the necessity of soulforging, for one) of the game.

                      I think there's value in imposing ammo limits on the characters anyway, in whichever gameline you play, even if it means more accounting, because gunfire is usually extremely lethal to mortals and ranged attacks put those with firearms at a huge advantage over unarmed opponents at a distance. If accounting is really a problem in your Wraith game, you could just take one Pathos per incidence of combat (most combats only last a handful of turns anyway).
                      Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 08-25-2015, 06:53 PM.

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                      • #12
                        They way I get around this conundrum is to have my Troupe restricted to single-fire guns (bolt action rifles and revolvers), and have them expend one Pathos per shot.
                        TOH, with the reworked combat rules I have nicked from this forum, combat is fast and visceral, and firearms can shred things very quickly. They are also very loud, and since we are currently Doomslaying, this is somewhat of a lethal drawback. So firearms are a "get out of jail" card, but they are not free.

                        http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...mlining-combat

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                        • #13
                          @adambeyoncelowe
                          Those are all fair concerns. Personally, I haven’t encountered many problems. Like I said, “YMMV.”

                          EDIT: I like the idea that guns do Bashing damage.
                          Last edited by Nazfool; 08-25-2015, 01:18 PM.


                          This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
                          (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
                          ").

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nazfool View Post
                            @adambeyoncelowe
                            Those are all fair concerns. Personally, I haven’t encountered many problems. Like I said, “YMMV.”

                            EDIT: I like the idea that guns do Bashing damage.
                            I was inspired by Vampire. Wraiths are made of plasm, so they don't suffer from impact damage in the same way. They also have no organs to shred. It balances firearms somewhat, too.

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                            • #15
                              Actually, aside from Moliate, can a wraith lose a limb? How long does that kind of damage last? Until they regain corpus I take it?

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