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  • #16
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    I was inspired by Vampire. Wraiths are made of plasm, so they don't suffer from impact damage in the same way. They also have no organs to shred. It balances firearms somewhat, too.
    My troupe's WtO games happened before the Revised Era (and the inclusion of Bashing and Lethal damage). I'm not sure what Mr. D has in store for us with Wr20, but I'm totally using your idea [assuming I can ever get the old troupe back together. Stupid RL...]


    This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
    (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
    ").

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    • #17
      Firearms automatically become less appealing if they're bashing damage too. So everyone is more likely to ignore relic bullets and Pathos and just take a blade.

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      • #18
        Eh, the resilience of Corpus is already handled well by the default of 10 levels and no wound penalties. Vampires have at least a little bit of explanation for why bullets are a special case, but any argument for bashing damage bullets in Wraith should also apply to knives and swords. After all, Vampires have some weak points, but every part of a Wraith's body is made out of the exact same substance.

        Violence in Wraith involves the memory of violent force tearing into the memory of a physical body. Does it really matter whether the memory of violent force comes from the memory of a knife or the memory of a gun and a bullet charged with raw emotion?


        Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
          Eh, the resilience of Corpus is already handled well by the default of 10 levels and no wound penalties. Vampires have at least a little bit of explanation for why bullets are a special case, but any argument for bashing damage bullets in Wraith should also apply to knives and swords. After all, Vampires have some weak points, but every part of a Wraith's body is made out of the exact same substance.

          Violence in Wraith involves the memory of violent force tearing into the memory of a physical body. Does it really matter whether the memory of violent force comes from the memory of a knife or the memory of a gun and a bullet charged with raw emotion?
          Well, a blade literally slices pieces off a wraith's corpus. A bullet just puts tiny holes in the corpus. I think that should make a difference. Memory aside, we know there's something objective about a wraith's corpus--were it merely about memory, they'd feel pain and thus take wound penalties. But they don't, and they don't appear to manifest the memory of organs, so there's a limit to the 'residual self-image' thing.

          Wraiths don't feel pain, true, but unlike vampires I've never ruled that they halve Bashing damage, either. The difference only really comes into play for healing. But YMMV.

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          • #20
            This is a hard thing to break down because two of the points I want to make aren't really about the rules but they shape how I think of Wraith so I really want to mention them anyways.

            The rules don't say either way, but quite a bit of the art does portray wraiths as having organs, bones, and viscera. Especially in the example of play section where, if I remember correctly, a Spectre is depicted as pulling a character's head and spine off. That's not even a harrowing inducing blow either, the character is still up and moving, just with a detached head. And yes, that's artistic license not rules. But at least for me it was really impactful artistic license that drove home the inconsistent and surreal nature of wraithly existence.

            Another thing that's not specifically part of the rules, but is how I've always thought of things: Wraiths do feel pain, but they feel it in the same muted way they feel almost everything else. Disassociated. Distant. Happening to someone else.

            As for bullets, I think you are right and this really is a YMMV moment. I don't think of them as little punches that pass through and only scoop out what is directly in front of them. I don't think of the wounds they make as tiny holes. And since I don't think of severed limbs impact a Wraith more than any other kind of damage (see the severed head imagery mentioned earlier) I don't think of blades as more impactful.

            I'll be interested to see how they incorporate bashing damage into the game, because I don't really think it makes much sense in the context of Wraith. But if I had to do it now I'd say Bashing damage is the kind of thing wraiths can easily forget about if you don't have overpowering pain to remind you of it: bruises, sprains, wounds that don't show, possibly even broken bones in a 'set it and forget it' way. Lethal would be damage that significantly changes wraiths and reminds them that they are not alive any more, major trauma, deep cuts, holes, amputations, etc.


            Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
              This is a hard thing to break down because two of the points I want to make aren't really about the rules but they shape how I think of Wraith so I really want to mention them anyways.

              The rules don't say either way, but quite a bit of the art does portray wraiths as having organs, bones, and viscera. Especially in the example of play section where, if I remember correctly, a Spectre is depicted as pulling a character's head and spine off. That's not even a harrowing inducing blow either, the character is still up and moving, just with a detached head. And yes, that's artistic license not rules. But at least for me it was really impactful artistic license that drove home the inconsistent and surreal nature of wraithly existence.
              You're right. But the organs aren't functional. They're just there because the wraith expects them to be there.

              Another thing that's not specifically part of the rules, but is how I've always thought of things: Wraiths do feel pain, but they feel it in the same muted way they feel almost everything else. Disassociated. Distant. Happening to someone else.
              Yes, exactly. And they don't get wound penalties because of it. You're right, though, that in the flavour text, beheadings and other horrendous injuries don't seem to stop a wraith performing as normal either (which is, perhaps, also why they don't take wound penalties, rather than simply the pain).

              As for bullets, I think you are right and this really is a YMMV moment. I don't think of them as little punches that pass through and only scoop out what is directly in front of them. I don't think of the wounds they make as tiny holes. And since I don't think of severed limbs impact a Wraith more than any other kind of damage (see the severed head imagery mentioned earlier) I don't think of blades as more impactful.

              I'll be interested to see how they incorporate bashing damage into the game, because I don't really think it makes much sense in the context of Wraith. But if I had to do it now I'd say Bashing damage is the kind of thing wraiths can easily forget about if you don't have overpowering pain to remind you of it: bruises, sprains, wounds that don't show, possibly even broken bones in a 'set it and forget it' way. Lethal would be damage that significantly changes wraiths and reminds them that they are not alive any more, major trauma, deep cuts, holes, amputations, etc.
              You may be right. Bashing/Lethal might not be as relevant, although it seems it has been incorporated into the system from the snippets we've seen so far. I'm interested to see how it's been incorporated. I expect the difference will mainly be down to how the damage is healed. The Wraith Revised that was published to Ex Libris Nocturnis years ago made it so that wraiths could only soak Bashing damage. I'm not expecting that, but there will presumably be some difference between the two types of normal damage.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Herbert_West View Post
                They way I get around this conundrum is to have my Troupe restricted to single-fire guns (bolt action rifles and revolvers), and have them expend one Pathos per shot.
                TOH, with the reworked combat rules I have nicked from this forum, combat is fast and visceral, and firearms can shred things very quickly. They are also very loud, and since we are currently Doomslaying, this is somewhat of a lethal drawback. So firearms are a "get out of jail" card, but they are not free.

                http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...mlining-combat
                Apologies in advance for the Necro...

                This quote above is exactly the kind of thing I was asking about and how I planned to rule things with my character. Having a max of 10 Passion and more than likely less if they need to break out their pistol (it was always a last resort for them) and using one Pathos per round on what's basically a revolver, so single shots, made the use of it quite fearful for the wraith, especially given how shaky it can be on occasion to get Pathos through a Passion having to happen and stuff.

                Still, the thread has made me waver on the use of firearms in a wraith game now... Though I think the drain on Pathos can make sense if a Soulfire crystal is linked to the gun and that eventually will run out of it's Pathos and need to be refilled, likely from the wraith's own supply...

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                • #23
                  The Wr20 systems chapter gives some clues about some of this (Bashing damage, etc). I'm so excited for this book!

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