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what level a relic is a smartphone or tablet?

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  • #16
    I've just begun to wonder, too: if phones do regularly become relics, would more phones have become relics before cloud storage (i.e., because they were literally repositories then for memories, like photo albums or, on another scale, libraries and museums), and has backing up possibly reduced the number of new relic phones accordingly?

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    • #17
      Don't forget that the technology is new enough that there may not have been deaths to bring sufficient examples into the underworld. I can easily see necropoli that are still getting used to cars/automobiles...

      Can't remember the relic rating for cars either.


      Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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      • #18
        Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
        Don't forget that the technology is new enough that there may not have been deaths to bring sufficient examples into the underworld. I can easily see necropoli that are still getting used to cars/automobiles...

        Can't remember the relic rating for cars either.
        Another vague bit in the fluff, I think. As far as I remember, a relic might not need to cross over with a wraith, it just needs to be lost or destroyed. Although items belonging to beings who eventually become wraiths probably have a higher likelihood of becoming relics.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
          I guess the question is: do people love/care about their phones, or is it more about the functions those phones provide? The handsets themselves are often and regularly replaced, but people find it very hard to give up texting, messaging, Facebook, etc.
          In which case it's not a Fetter, it's a Passion for the illusion of conectivity and instant gratification.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
            If people spent hours a day communicating through their socks they might be. I do think the sheer volume of use some phones see is more than enough to create a relic. My phone wouldn't be among them, I don't use it often enough and while I don't like being without it (for emergencies) I'm not dependent on it. However, there are enough people glued to their phones for (in their opinion) crucial communication reasons that I'd say a fair number are coming across.
            People spend almost their entire day wearing socks. They are more glued to their socks than their phones. Socks make them comfortable or uncomfortable. A wet sock can be a source of intense misery, particularly if you have to keep moving. They cause frustration when you can't find a matching pair. It's easy to get obsessed about socks. Putting a sock on, warm from the dryer can be almost sensual. Reading Les Miserables seems like a several hundred page diatrabie by Valjean about socks at times.

            The reason that the Shadowlands aren't hip deep in socks is more that they are completely fungible. Which is something they have in common with cellphones. Some people care about their cell phones a lot, but they actually care more about what they can DO with them. And most of those people who really really most sincerely care about their cellphones? They are the first ones to toss the current phone for the next shinier one.

            And the fact that cellphones do what they do has everything to do with infrastructure. What is a cell phone with all the apparatus of transmission? An alarm clock? A calculator? A music storage/player device? (Is anyone really really passionate about their phone's flashlight function). Are people more attached to the device or the play list? It's not like there's a huge collector market for defunct cellphones full of music, like there is, say, for vinyl. So, unless you are positing wraithly cell phone towers and usage plans, cell phones in the Shadowlands AREN'T going to do they same things they do here and now. They may do things that are, I dunno, twists or even, say, SHADOWS of what they did in the living world, but they won't connect to an Undernet or access a past-life telephone network. They may do something useful (as Relics) but it will be more reflective of their environment.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ajax View Post

              People spend almost their entire day wearing socks. They are more glued to their socks than their phones. Socks make them comfortable or uncomfortable. A wet sock can be a source of intense misery, particularly if you have to keep moving. They cause frustration when you can't find a matching pair. It's easy to get obsessed about socks. Putting a sock on, warm from the dryer can be almost sensual. Reading Les Miserables seems like a several hundred page diatrabie by Valjean about socks at times.

              The reason that the Shadowlands aren't hip deep in socks is more that they are completely fungible. Which is something they have in common with cellphones. Some people care about their cell phones a lot, but they actually care more about what they can DO with them. And most of those people who really really most sincerely care about their cellphones? They are the first ones to toss the current phone for the next shinier one.

              And the fact that cellphones do what they do has everything to do with infrastructure. What is a cell phone with all the apparatus of transmission? An alarm clock? A calculator? A music storage/player device? (Is anyone really really passionate about their phone's flashlight function). Are people more attached to the device or the play list? It's not like there's a huge collector market for defunct cellphones full of music, like there is, say, for vinyl. So, unless you are positing wraithly cell phone towers and usage plans, cell phones in the Shadowlands AREN'T going to do they same things they do here and now. They may do things that are, I dunno, twists or even, say, SHADOWS of what they did in the living world, but they won't connect to an Undernet or access a past-life telephone network. They may do something useful (as Relics) but it will be more reflective of their environment.
              I think this is it, really. Underworld communication networks would be an interesting subject, but I'm not sure swathes of mobiles are turning up in the afterlife. And they're probably going to have other, very specific functions.

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              • #22


                Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                Yes, people feel disconnected when they lose their phones, but that's a fleeting anxiety caused by a society where everything is now-now-now. I'd say it's more of a mild discomfort than a devastating loss.
                I did specify the more dependent people.

                It doesn't help, of course, that the fluff here is a bit vague and the rules are nonexistent. I've always felt that if a thing were loved enough to possibly be a Fetter when it remained in the Skinlands (even if it wasn't--because a Fetter requires a wraith too), then it would definitely carry enough emotional resonance to become a relic. Something that's merely quotidian, no matter how 'essential' it seems to maintain the convenience of everyday life, doesn't seem to cut the mustard for me. But this is just my own interpretation.
                Yeah, this one is going to vary by ghost, but It's really not hard for me to imagine a wraith with a smartphone as a fetter. But yeah, more concrete guidelines would be helpful.

                Originally posted by Ajax View Post

                People spend almost their entire day wearing socks. They are more glued to their socks than their phones. Socks make them comfortable or uncomfortable. A wet sock can be a source of intense misery, particularly if you have to keep moving. They cause frustration when you can't find a matching pair. It's easy to get obsessed about socks. Putting a sock on, warm from the dryer can be almost sensual. Reading Les Miserables seems like a several hundred page diatrabie by Valjean about socks at times.

                The reason that the Shadowlands aren't hip deep in socks is more that they are completely fungible. Completely fungible on a daily basis Which is something they have in common with cellphones
                No, that's not something they have in common with smartphones. Socks are changed daily, phones are changed yearly. Ask most people if they'd want to switch phones every day and their answer would be no. Phones are already more personal than socks. Not only that, but if someone could only wear one pair of socks for the entire year, I'd bet those socks would become relics for all the reasons you just listed. And that's without compulsively checking them every several minutes.

                Some people care about their cell phones a lot, but they actually care more about what they can DO with them. And most of those people who really really most sincerely care about their cellphones? They are the first ones to toss the current phone for the next shinier one.
                A large chunk of relics are invested because of what their owners did or could do with them, that's not a significant barrier. And the question is not are they willing to get rid of them, the question is how much emotional energy do they invest in them before that point. Honestly, I'd think the biggest impediment to relicdom is not the lack of emotional investment, but the lack of destruction.

                And the fact that cellphones do what they do has everything to do with infrastructure. What is a cell phone with all the apparatus of transmission? An alarm clock? A calculator? A music storage/player device? (Is anyone really really passionate about their phone's flashlight function). Are people more attached to the device or the play list? It's not like there's a huge collector market for defunct cellphones full of music, like there is, say, for vinyl. So, unless you are positing wraithly cell phone towers and usage plans, cell phones in the Shadowlands AREN'T going to do they same things they do here and now. They may do things that are, I dunno, twists or even, say, SHADOWS of what they did in the living world, but they won't connect to an Undernet or access a past-life telephone network. They may do something useful (as Relics) but it will be more reflective of their environment.
                Well the interesting thing about a relic made from someone's need to be connected is that it's probably going to have something to do with connecting people. I think you are right and it would take some kind of intentional metaphysical infrastructure to set up an actual network, that or the relics would only work where they could connect to a Skinlands network and cost a lot of Pathos.

                On the other hand, big chunks of Carthage and Rome and a hundred other cities came over when those cities were sacked. The combined efforts of thousands of people using or just being aware of a thing is enough to bring them across the Shroud, so I'm not ruling out relic cell towers.


                Mage: The Ice-ension: An Epic Game of Reality on the Rink

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                • #23
                  Just to bring this to the table... The Midnight Express appeared originally (the main train now) from a crash, becoming a powerful relic vehicle. Now I know having some connection to an item before it's destruction in this discussion seems to class it as a relic though I'd be more inclined to say that would be a prerequisite for a Fetter, given that I'm not sure now much of an emotional connection a train really has with someone. On the other side though, I think it was mentioned in it's sourcebook that the driver of the Express still drives the thing and his life basically came down to his love of his occupation, driving that train, which he still does as a wraith. Thoughts?

                  Also, I do think Pathos can power relic electrical gubbins that end up in the Shadowland and from the page-count on computers and internet connection in the Wraith Player's Guide we can see that not only do relic computers that can be used end up in the Shadowlands, but also there is such thing as a wraith able to reach the net (whether this is a seperate version to ours, is another thing though I do believe The Digital Web and access to it has some say in the matter, this too was discussed in the Wraith Player's Guide).

                  To conclude, there likely are smart phones in the Shadowlands and with a burst of Pathos it is likely completely functual across the Shroud, if for just the one scene as rules on Pathos infusion tends to state (at least in 1st edition Wraith, which I own).

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                  • #24
                    For other ideas, check out this thread. It has some similar ideas and some new ideas.


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