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what level a relic is a smartphone or tablet?

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  • what level a relic is a smartphone or tablet?

    I think were all curious, and want to know.

    As I think such things would be VERY MUCH in demand. if somewhat rare...

  • Nazfool
    replied
    For other ideas, check out this thread. It has some similar ideas and some new ideas.

    Leave a comment:


  • wander
    replied
    Just to bring this to the table... The Midnight Express appeared originally (the main train now) from a crash, becoming a powerful relic vehicle. Now I know having some connection to an item before it's destruction in this discussion seems to class it as a relic though I'd be more inclined to say that would be a prerequisite for a Fetter, given that I'm not sure now much of an emotional connection a train really has with someone. On the other side though, I think it was mentioned in it's sourcebook that the driver of the Express still drives the thing and his life basically came down to his love of his occupation, driving that train, which he still does as a wraith. Thoughts?

    Also, I do think Pathos can power relic electrical gubbins that end up in the Shadowland and from the page-count on computers and internet connection in the Wraith Player's Guide we can see that not only do relic computers that can be used end up in the Shadowlands, but also there is such thing as a wraith able to reach the net (whether this is a seperate version to ours, is another thing though I do believe The Digital Web and access to it has some say in the matter, this too was discussed in the Wraith Player's Guide).

    To conclude, there likely are smart phones in the Shadowlands and with a burst of Pathos it is likely completely functual across the Shroud, if for just the one scene as rules on Pathos infusion tends to state (at least in 1st edition Wraith, which I own).

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  • Ramnesis
    replied


    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
    Yes, people feel disconnected when they lose their phones, but that's a fleeting anxiety caused by a society where everything is now-now-now. I'd say it's more of a mild discomfort than a devastating loss.
    I did specify the more dependent people.

    It doesn't help, of course, that the fluff here is a bit vague and the rules are nonexistent. I've always felt that if a thing were loved enough to possibly be a Fetter when it remained in the Skinlands (even if it wasn't--because a Fetter requires a wraith too), then it would definitely carry enough emotional resonance to become a relic. Something that's merely quotidian, no matter how 'essential' it seems to maintain the convenience of everyday life, doesn't seem to cut the mustard for me. But this is just my own interpretation.
    Yeah, this one is going to vary by ghost, but It's really not hard for me to imagine a wraith with a smartphone as a fetter. But yeah, more concrete guidelines would be helpful.

    Originally posted by Ajax View Post

    People spend almost their entire day wearing socks. They are more glued to their socks than their phones. Socks make them comfortable or uncomfortable. A wet sock can be a source of intense misery, particularly if you have to keep moving. They cause frustration when you can't find a matching pair. It's easy to get obsessed about socks. Putting a sock on, warm from the dryer can be almost sensual. Reading Les Miserables seems like a several hundred page diatrabie by Valjean about socks at times.

    The reason that the Shadowlands aren't hip deep in socks is more that they are completely fungible. Completely fungible on a daily basis Which is something they have in common with cellphones
    No, that's not something they have in common with smartphones. Socks are changed daily, phones are changed yearly. Ask most people if they'd want to switch phones every day and their answer would be no. Phones are already more personal than socks. Not only that, but if someone could only wear one pair of socks for the entire year, I'd bet those socks would become relics for all the reasons you just listed. And that's without compulsively checking them every several minutes.

    Some people care about their cell phones a lot, but they actually care more about what they can DO with them. And most of those people who really really most sincerely care about their cellphones? They are the first ones to toss the current phone for the next shinier one.
    A large chunk of relics are invested because of what their owners did or could do with them, that's not a significant barrier. And the question is not are they willing to get rid of them, the question is how much emotional energy do they invest in them before that point. Honestly, I'd think the biggest impediment to relicdom is not the lack of emotional investment, but the lack of destruction.

    And the fact that cellphones do what they do has everything to do with infrastructure. What is a cell phone with all the apparatus of transmission? An alarm clock? A calculator? A music storage/player device? (Is anyone really really passionate about their phone's flashlight function). Are people more attached to the device or the play list? It's not like there's a huge collector market for defunct cellphones full of music, like there is, say, for vinyl. So, unless you are positing wraithly cell phone towers and usage plans, cell phones in the Shadowlands AREN'T going to do they same things they do here and now. They may do things that are, I dunno, twists or even, say, SHADOWS of what they did in the living world, but they won't connect to an Undernet or access a past-life telephone network. They may do something useful (as Relics) but it will be more reflective of their environment.
    Well the interesting thing about a relic made from someone's need to be connected is that it's probably going to have something to do with connecting people. I think you are right and it would take some kind of intentional metaphysical infrastructure to set up an actual network, that or the relics would only work where they could connect to a Skinlands network and cost a lot of Pathos.

    On the other hand, big chunks of Carthage and Rome and a hundred other cities came over when those cities were sacked. The combined efforts of thousands of people using or just being aware of a thing is enough to bring them across the Shroud, so I'm not ruling out relic cell towers.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Ajax View Post

    People spend almost their entire day wearing socks. They are more glued to their socks than their phones. Socks make them comfortable or uncomfortable. A wet sock can be a source of intense misery, particularly if you have to keep moving. They cause frustration when you can't find a matching pair. It's easy to get obsessed about socks. Putting a sock on, warm from the dryer can be almost sensual. Reading Les Miserables seems like a several hundred page diatrabie by Valjean about socks at times.

    The reason that the Shadowlands aren't hip deep in socks is more that they are completely fungible. Which is something they have in common with cellphones. Some people care about their cell phones a lot, but they actually care more about what they can DO with them. And most of those people who really really most sincerely care about their cellphones? They are the first ones to toss the current phone for the next shinier one.

    And the fact that cellphones do what they do has everything to do with infrastructure. What is a cell phone with all the apparatus of transmission? An alarm clock? A calculator? A music storage/player device? (Is anyone really really passionate about their phone's flashlight function). Are people more attached to the device or the play list? It's not like there's a huge collector market for defunct cellphones full of music, like there is, say, for vinyl. So, unless you are positing wraithly cell phone towers and usage plans, cell phones in the Shadowlands AREN'T going to do they same things they do here and now. They may do things that are, I dunno, twists or even, say, SHADOWS of what they did in the living world, but they won't connect to an Undernet or access a past-life telephone network. They may do something useful (as Relics) but it will be more reflective of their environment.
    I think this is it, really. Underworld communication networks would be an interesting subject, but I'm not sure swathes of mobiles are turning up in the afterlife. And they're probably going to have other, very specific functions.

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  • Ajax
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post
    If people spent hours a day communicating through their socks they might be. I do think the sheer volume of use some phones see is more than enough to create a relic. My phone wouldn't be among them, I don't use it often enough and while I don't like being without it (for emergencies) I'm not dependent on it. However, there are enough people glued to their phones for (in their opinion) crucial communication reasons that I'd say a fair number are coming across.
    People spend almost their entire day wearing socks. They are more glued to their socks than their phones. Socks make them comfortable or uncomfortable. A wet sock can be a source of intense misery, particularly if you have to keep moving. They cause frustration when you can't find a matching pair. It's easy to get obsessed about socks. Putting a sock on, warm from the dryer can be almost sensual. Reading Les Miserables seems like a several hundred page diatrabie by Valjean about socks at times.

    The reason that the Shadowlands aren't hip deep in socks is more that they are completely fungible. Which is something they have in common with cellphones. Some people care about their cell phones a lot, but they actually care more about what they can DO with them. And most of those people who really really most sincerely care about their cellphones? They are the first ones to toss the current phone for the next shinier one.

    And the fact that cellphones do what they do has everything to do with infrastructure. What is a cell phone with all the apparatus of transmission? An alarm clock? A calculator? A music storage/player device? (Is anyone really really passionate about their phone's flashlight function). Are people more attached to the device or the play list? It's not like there's a huge collector market for defunct cellphones full of music, like there is, say, for vinyl. So, unless you are positing wraithly cell phone towers and usage plans, cell phones in the Shadowlands AREN'T going to do they same things they do here and now. They may do things that are, I dunno, twists or even, say, SHADOWS of what they did in the living world, but they won't connect to an Undernet or access a past-life telephone network. They may do something useful (as Relics) but it will be more reflective of their environment.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ajax
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
    I guess the question is: do people love/care about their phones, or is it more about the functions those phones provide? The handsets themselves are often and regularly replaced, but people find it very hard to give up texting, messaging, Facebook, etc.
    In which case it's not a Fetter, it's a Passion for the illusion of conectivity and instant gratification.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
    Don't forget that the technology is new enough that there may not have been deaths to bring sufficient examples into the underworld. I can easily see necropoli that are still getting used to cars/automobiles...

    Can't remember the relic rating for cars either.
    Another vague bit in the fluff, I think. As far as I remember, a relic might not need to cross over with a wraith, it just needs to be lost or destroyed. Although items belonging to beings who eventually become wraiths probably have a higher likelihood of becoming relics.

    Leave a comment:


  • FallenEco
    replied
    Don't forget that the technology is new enough that there may not have been deaths to bring sufficient examples into the underworld. I can easily see necropoli that are still getting used to cars/automobiles...

    Can't remember the relic rating for cars either.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    I've just begun to wonder, too: if phones do regularly become relics, would more phones have become relics before cloud storage (i.e., because they were literally repositories then for memories, like photo albums or, on another scale, libraries and museums), and has backing up possibly reduced the number of new relic phones accordingly?

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by Ramnesis View Post

    I don't think that's as important a distinction as you are making it out to be, but lets run with it. Sometimes the best way of telling how much of an investment someone has is to take it away. It's hard for me to remember the value I placed in an old blanket, for instance, but I can easily observe the devastation a child feels when their blanket is taken away. So forget for a moment all of the things people do with their phones and just ask what happens if the phone vanishes, and I think the answer for some people is: they feel lost, disconnected, and out of touch.

    For the most dependent, the smartphone is like a security blanket. Just having it gives them a feeling of connection and control even when there is no one to talk to. Losing it sends them spiraling into anxiety and worry about what they will miss. Sure phones are replaceable, but then so are blankets (shhh... don't tell the kids). So I think the important question is: is a year enough exposure to that kind of emotional investment to create a relic?
    But people are most upset at having lost their photos, their numbers, their videos, etc. When those things are recovered or backed up, the distress is much less.

    Yes, people feel disconnected when they lose their phones, but that's a fleeting anxiety caused by a society where everything is now-now-now. I'd say it's more of a mild discomfort than a devastating loss.

    It doesn't help, of course, that the fluff here is a bit vague and the rules are nonexistent. I've always felt that if a thing were loved enough to possibly be a Fetter when it remained in the Skinlands (even if it wasn't--because a Fetter requires a wraith too), then it would definitely carry enough emotional resonance to become a relic. Something that's merely quotidian, no matter how 'essential' it seems to maintain the convenience of everyday life, doesn't seem to cut the mustard for me. But this is just my own interpretation.

    I would like to see something more concrete in Wr20.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ramnesis
    replied
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
    I guess the question is: do people love/care about their phones, or is it more about the functions those phones provide? The handsets themselves are often and regularly replaced, but people find it very hard to give up texting, messaging, Facebook, etc.
    I don't think that's as important a distinction as you are making it out to be, but lets run with it. Sometimes the best way of telling how much of an investment someone has is to take it away. It's hard for me to remember the value I placed in an old blanket, for instance, but I can easily observe the devastation a child feels when their blanket is taken away. So forget for a moment all of the things people do with their phones and just ask what happens if the phone vanishes, and I think the answer for some people is: they feel lost, disconnected, and out of touch.

    For the most dependent, the smartphone is like a security blanket. Just having it gives them a feeling of connection and control even when there is no one to talk to. Losing it sends them spiraling into anxiety and worry about what they will miss. Sure phones are replaceable, but then so are blankets (shhh... don't tell the kids). So I think the important question is: is a year enough exposure to that kind of emotional investment to create a relic?

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    I guess the question is: do people love/care about their phones, or is it more about the functions those phones provide? The handsets themselves are often and regularly replaced, but people find it very hard to give up texting, messaging, Facebook, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ramnesis
    replied
    [QUOTE=Ajax;n781168]

    Does the Hierarchy even have ghostly telegraph wires strung between necropoli? If relatively old, simple and well-understood technologies are not useful and reliable enough for systemic exploitation by a government that is willing to adopt and innovate when necessary (meaning, do whatever is needed to insure survival in a hostile world, note, the Hierarchy is STILL THERE after multiple centuries ). If not, then what is the chance they are using an afterlife internet, cell phone or even landline phone system? Not much has been put forth in the books to indicate it.
    Probably not, but why would they bother when just sending messengers along already extant power lines was a viable option? It would be a resource expenditure for a system that's more vulnerable than what's already available. Now telegraph lines between Stygia and Necropoli might be really desirable, but that would be a lot harder to pull off.

    Smartphones that make it past the indifference of folks willing to cast them aside for any and all upgrades or plan changes are going to be unique each in and of itself, not part of some network. Powers will be idiosyncratic to whatever emotional value was invested that made THAT piece of tech important enough for an echo to outlast its physical destruction.

    If just any old discarded thing was sucked into the Shadowlands, every necropolis would be awash in unpaired socks and dried up pens.
    If people spent hours a day communicating through their socks they might be. I do think the sheer volume of use some phones see is more than enough to create a relic. My phone wouldn't be among them, I don't use it often enough and while I don't like being without it (for emergencies) I'm not dependent on it. However, there are enough people glued to their phones for (in their opinion) crucial communication reasons that I'd say a fair number are coming across.

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  • Prince of the Night
    replied
    Well someone whos poor and either steals, saves money for or is GIFTED such a thing may be more attached to it.

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