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  • wander
    started a topic So... what about the dinosaurs?

    So... what about the dinosaurs?

    Bit of a weird topic I'm sure this one will be, but nevertheless the thought popped into my mind and I was sure I'd find the answer here...

    So if a human dies and leaves a wraith behind in the Shadowlands (if they have the unresolved Passions to do so, of course), then what about other things that die? Like animals, plants and... the dinosaurs?

    Is there a place somewhere in the Dark Umbra or what have you that the dinosaurs went to when they died and eventually wiped out? If my cat dies, where does his spirit go if it doesn't transcend or fall into the Void?

    This may fall into Gaia and Werewolf territory, but as I'm asking about the deaths of things that aren't human, I thought I'd place it here. Mainly wondering if a wraith may see the ghost of a stray dog or cat in the Shadowlands...

    But also... What happened to the dinosaurs?

    I know the thought of this topic is a bit out there, but I am asking in all seriousness... And if such a thing was never really answered, what are your thoughts on this?

    Cheers!

  • Crowley
    replied

    #197
    05-03-2014, 06:53 PM


    why did i had a vision of Wraith Animals and Wraith dinosaurs being rided WW2 ghosts to fight the spectres......Someone do a metal albumcover with that!!


    RealDeadguy
    Member
    • Join Date: Nov 2013
    • Posts: 119




    #228
    05-21-2014, 05:08 AM


    Right. First, the news: I've started assigning sections to specific authors. I think you'll be pleased with some of the familiar faces who are coming back to the fold for this, and there are some very talented new writers climbing on board the Midnight Express as well. So, all kinds of happy about that.

    Second: Charlie is perhaps understating how perfectly flummoxed he had the rest of that Circle. And he maintained a perfect poker face while doing it. Never play cards with Charlie Bates.

    Third: Officially, CHoE superseded Berlin by Night in the greater WoD continuity. My stance in doing CHoE was, and is, that it was disingenuous of us to talk about how we were making games for mature minds without tackling the consequences of that head on, as there was a big hole in certain parts of WoD continuity that pretty much coincided with WW2. So I proposed filling that gap, and I made it clear that we weren't going to be blaming the Holocaust on vampires or werewolves or anyone else - that there was plenty of evil perpetrated by human beings to go around, even in the WoD. So vampire Himmler is, IMHO, hors d'continuity, and should stay that way.

    Fourth: What's an obolus worth? There will be a slight overhaul in the Stygian economy coming down the pike. In the intervening years between Wraith 2nd and now, I had the good fortune to marry someone who's professionally trained in economics and statistics. I will be asking her a lot of questions.

    Fifth: Nobody's riding a wraith dinosaur but me, you hear?

    Deadguy out.






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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Wolfgar View Post

    WoD Prehistory IS most likely based on Technocracy propaganda and consensual reality retroactively filling in gaps, although it likely wasn't the era of Exalted. The primordial World of Darkness was a very, very weird place.
    Mage's WoD isn't the same as the WoD for each of the other games. It even concedes this in Ascension, I believe.

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  • Crowley
    replied
    I asked this once..im sorry...im so sorry

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  • Wolfgar
    replied
    Originally posted by One Vorlon View Post
    The initial ads for Exalted, published in various World of Darkness books, pretty clearly stated that any pre-Dark Ages "history" is Technocracy propaganda, not truth. Creation, the Exalted, the wars against the Yozi and Neverborn - that's the real history of the world. "Dinosaurs" are a polite fiction, the way the Technocracy explains away inconvenient bones.

    (Of course, that explicit link between the two games has weakened over the years. Still a viable interpretation if you want to use it, though)
    WoD Prehistory IS most likely based on Technocracy propaganda and consensual reality retroactively filling in gaps, although it likely wasn't the era of Exalted. The primordial World of Darkness was a very, very weird place.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    The direct links to WoD games were severed the most before the game was even published, and it's been doing its own thing ever since. Anything in the original 1e core that mentions direct links is likely a relic of an editing pass that didn't catch everything.

    Originally posted by wander View Post
    *nods* Also the Infernal Exalted castes match up to the names of the Houses of D:tF.
    In 2nd edition, yes. We've been told that they won't stay the same or be derived from one WoD game line for EX3.

    Really anything a bit different from the settings of owod and Exalted I place to Technocracy lies and that owod is an AU future for Exalted, so some things are going to be different...
    Well, the Technocracy doesn't exist unless you're playing Mage, so what they think is not relevant to other games. The crossover doesn't work on account of how the games aren't actually unified.

    I sure wish I could do a good job of placing those two settings with the prehistory of Demon though... One could say the creator-spirit of Gaia is God and the father, son and holy spirit as the Triat. I'm not sure what ties to Angels and Demons, besides the Ebon Dragon named as one of the last angels, though in Exalted they were a Yozi... I pondered that there is some link to the Weaver with the Angels, as they were explicitly created to be what splits, names, marks and delineates Creator from the Void (Wyld and Oblivion). They're fairly similar to gods (Kami in owod) though it's mentioned they're gone from Creation, unlike spirits.
    Kami in Werewolf are a bit different than that, being the "positively possessed" counterpoints to drones, fomori, and gorgons,in that they don't need to worry about Autonomy.

    Oh and I like to link Nephilim to the Exalted. Just because. ^_^
    Too much Diablo 3, perhaps? (^VVVVV^)

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  • One Vorlon
    replied
    Originally posted by wander View Post
    . . .Perhaps a question for Exalted afficiandos, though I wonder how the prehistory of Dinosaurs and pre-Man days links in with the legends of Creation...
    The initial ads for Exalted, published in various World of Darkness books, pretty clearly stated that any pre-Dark Ages "history" is Technocracy propaganda, not truth. Creation, the Exalted, the wars against the Yozi and Neverborn - that's the real history of the world. "Dinosaurs" are a polite fiction, the way the Technocracy explains away inconvenient bones.

    (Of course, that explicit link between the two games has weakened over the years. Still a viable interpretation if you want to use it, though)
    Last edited by One Vorlon; 12-23-2015, 05:27 AM.

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  • wander
    replied
    *nods* Also the Infernal Exalted castes match up to the names of the Houses of D:tF.

    Really anything a bit different from the settings of owod and Exalted I place to Technocracy lies and that owod is an AU future for Exalted, so some things are going to be different...

    I sure wish I could do a good job of placing those two settings with the prehistory of Demon though... One could say the creator-spirit of Gaia is God and the father, son and holy spirit as the Triat. I'm not sure what ties to Angels and Demons, besides the Ebon Dragon named as one of the last angels, though in Exalted they were a Yozi... I pondered that there is some link to the Weaver with the Angels, as they were explicitly created to be what splits, names, marks and delineates Creator from the Void (Wyld and Oblivion). They're fairly similar to gods (Kami in owod) though it's mentioned they're gone from Creation, unlike spirits.

    Oh and I like to link Nephilim to the Exalted. Just because. ^_^

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by wander View Post
    Huh, so if the Usurpation didn't happen, that's what led to the classic world of darkness? Ah, the white wolf wiki backs that up looking at it... I never knew that! I wonder if the Terrestrials and Dragon Kings have some link then, given both were linked to Gaia and the whole dragon-link...

    Sorry about the tangent, though I'm pondering on Tempest legends of times past, etc...
    Dragon Kings are a thematic link, not necessarily a direct one. since SD details a very different setup for the Kings that lived prior to the Wonder Work. Dragon-Blooded, meanwhile, are linked to the Wan Xian and the revenant-vampires of KotE.

    (Solars go to Imbued, Lunars to Garou and Fera, Abyssals to Vampire and Wraith, and no being known as Fair Folk has ever really stayed the same for very long, but they're thematically akin to Changelings)

    The Underworld from Exalted was the most direct link in how it functioned. They did wobble about what a ghost is, though; in Exalted, everyone apparently experiences a division of Psyche and Shadow, with the psyche forming the ghost as Exalted terms it and the Shadow becoming a hungry ghost, which is naturally material. It gets even further twisted, mind, because Exalted is trying hard to use some of the Daoist concepts from DKoJ (it doesn't use the terms psyche and shadow, but hun and po) without actually using very much Daoism.

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  • Quantumboost
    replied
    Well, Dragon Kings in Exalted do have elementally-tied techniques as their native charmset, so there's some superficial similarities and Gaia probably had a big hand in their design. They aren't actually directly related beyond that, though.

    Of course, with all the retrohistorical muckery going on by Mages and Weaver influence, the War of Rage cutting out substantial amounts of the racial memory of the Mokole pertaining to those Ages, and the gradual decay of the world's memories leaking into the Tempest and Oblivion, who knows how much of that knowledge is left?

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  • wander
    replied
    Huh, so if the Usurpation didn't happen, that's what led to the classic world of darkness? Ah, the white wolf wiki backs that up looking at it... I never knew that! I wonder if the Terrestrials and Dragon Kings have some link then, given both were linked to Gaia and the whole dragon-link...

    Sorry about the tangent, though I'm pondering on Tempest legends of times past, etc...

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by wander View Post

    Perhaps a question for Exalted afficiandos, though I wonder how the prehistory of Dinosaurs and pre-Man days links in with the legends of Creation...
    Officially not at all. The WoD was the result of Sidereals doing nothing about the Solars, which in the world that became Exalted, they obviously did. Direct connections between Exalted and any given WoD game don't really exist, but there are a few easter eggs and name drops from time to time, like Compass: Autochthon having Crystal polar mutants called Glass Walkers, or Mother Bog and an insane Niobrara spirit showing up in W20 Book of the Wyrm.

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  • wander
    replied
    Originally posted by Herbert_West View Post
    It bears remembering that not every human souls goes to the Underworld. IIRC, only about a tenth of people have enough unfinished business to get Passions and Fetters and thus be stuck in the Underworld
    Brilliant, I was wondering on a percentage of people that'd be wandering round Arcanos and that answers one question I was pondering on recently.

    Also thank you for the insight, Saur Ops... I may introduce some other Umbral stuff (mainly Dreaming related stuff though). I wasn't seriously going down the path of ghost-dinosaurs for games though I considered what of the world before the days of Charon. I still like to link My owod to Exalted for prehistory and whilst it'll likely never come up, it's little things like this that I'd like to consider, cosmology-wise.

    Perhaps a question for Exalted afficiandos, though I wonder how the prehistory of Dinosaurs and pre-Man days links in with the legends of Creation...

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by nothing View Post
    I just remembered - and I'm not sure I'm recalling correctly - that in the overall cosmology of the cWoD, dinosaur spirits ended up in some sort of Primordial Gaia in the Middle Umbra, tied somehow with the Mokolé. For more canon information, you might want to poke the guys in the Werewolf forum.
    The dinosaur-spirits in Pangaea are actually a type of being known as emanations. They exist only in Near Realms. Some non-avian dinosaur-spirits might still be around, but per The Lost Ones totem description in Mokole, they are not keen to go out and do anything. The Wonder Work of the Dissolver and the War of Dragons, the latter of which one can read about in draft form on the Shattered Dreams KS page, left a terrible scar on their essential existence.

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  • Matt the Bruins fan
    replied
    That number was probably an even smaller percentage back in the days when infant mortality was high (or continues to be in undeveloped countries where it still IS high).

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