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  • #16
    I'm hoping we can get a preview of some of that sweet, sweet Orpheus material soon.


    Just call me Lex.

    Female pronouns for me, please.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ajax View Post
      A bit interesting in the dangling "setting" threads (bc as as been ABSOLUTELY ESTABLISHED by OP fiat and definition creation, setting material created to set later metaplot is NOT metaplot), bur, overall, pretty "meh" and
      really really short.

      I definitely got a look from my husband when I was describing what I was reading, how much I had spent on the Kickstarter, how much I paid in, how long ago that was and how much I've gotten in return (14 bits?). I don't think there are going to be anymore OP Kickstarter investments in my future.
      Well, it's a core book, so it won't contain masses of new material. It's a compilation of old material and revised rules, really. But the new stuff, although sparse, is probably what's keeping most people interested. It's just that none of that juicy new material has been previewed yet. I'm guessing it's because these bits will be written last...

      It's mildly irritating, yes, but when you consider the price of a POD hardback, the jump up in quality, and the stretch goals, backing the Kickstarters actually works out more cost effective than just buying the POD core books.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

        Well, it's a core book, so it won't contain masses of new material. It's a compilation of old material and revised rules, really. But the new stuff, although sparse, is probably what's keeping most people interested. It's just that none of that juicy new material has been previewed yet. I'm guessing it's because these bits will be written last...

        It's mildly irritating, yes, but when you consider the price of a POD hardback, the jump up in quality, and the stretch goals, backing the Kickstarters actually works out more cost effective than just buying the POD core books.
        Cost effectiveness is an issue, but it's not really 100% determinative. An investment with return deferred to this level is pretty much a loss until proven otherwise. The investment doesn't get paid out in a manner that is conducive to confidence (namely, the books go out to the backers well after they are widely available to the public and that is used as an attempt to grab more money by "Buy one of the POD copies and have TWO!" come-ons. (and, no, almost no other RPG Kickstarter follows that business model), some of the stretch goals are completely useless novelty books, the stretch goals play out over years and years to come to fruition - so that continues the problems created by massive lead times and the "gap time" before backers get their hardcopy, there is no acknowledgement of the Kickstarter supporters with regard to the later PODs (as in, say, the oh so common, "Buy the pdf and get a coupon to offset some cost of the POD when it shows up").

        It's hard to defend all that when asked. Pretty much the core argument for supporting the Kickstarter-as-is , is "Well.... I really like Wraith". Which isn't even a good sell, as you've pointed out, since I have all the Wraith books, it's not like there's going to be much in the way of new material. For example, as has been pointed out, rules on playing Ferrymen would be better than just some fluff heavy/crunch light flavor text for using them as NPCs, or, more accurately, as background info, particularly when I actually DO have the info to play (and run them as statted NPCs) them already in Ends of Empire.

        Plus, I am married to an accountant, money is tight, and that throws things into relief instead of the haze of fanboy devotion to a game that is hard to get anyone to want to play....

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ajax View Post

          Cost effectiveness is an issue, but it's not really 100% determinative. An investment with return deferred to this level is pretty much a loss until proven otherwise. The investment doesn't get paid out in a manner that is conducive to confidence (namely, the books go out to the backers well after they are widely available to the public and that is used as an attempt to grab more money by "Buy one of the POD copies and have TWO!" come-ons. (and, no, almost no other RPG Kickstarter follows that business model), some of the stretch goals are completely useless novelty books, the stretch goals play out over years and years to come to fruition - so that continues the problems created by massive lead times and the "gap time" before backers get their hardcopy, there is no acknowledgement of the Kickstarter supporters with regard to the later PODs (as in, say, the oh so common, "Buy the pdf and get a coupon to offset some cost of the POD when it shows up&quot.

          It's hard to defend all that when asked. Pretty much the core argument for supporting the Kickstarter-as-is , is "Well.... I really like Wraith". Which isn't even a good sell, as you've pointed out, since I have all the Wraith books, it's not like there's going to be much in the way of new material. For example, as has been pointed out, rules on playing Ferrymen would be better than just some fluff heavy/crunch light flavor text for using them as NPCs, or, more accurately, as background info, particularly when I actually DO have the info to play (and run them as statted NPCs) them already in Ends of Empire.

          Plus, I am married to an accountant, money is tight, and that throws things into relief instead of the haze of fanboy devotion to a game that is hard to get anyone to want to play....
          I agree that Kickstarters are definitely not for you.

          It would be preferable if the KS only started once the book was written and edited, but hopefully OPP are learning. Besides, I don't think there'll be any more KS campaigns for core books now. It's only two years until fifth edition.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

            I agree that Kickstarters are definitely not for you.

            It would be preferable if the KS only started once the book was written and edited, but hopefully OPP are learning. Besides, I don't think there'll be any more KS campaigns for core books now. It's only two years until fifth edition.
            The only way in which it is personal is the fact that I have to articulate a cost-benefit analysis and apply it to my personal situation. The factors listed are factual and problematic, to say the least. When there's money to throw around, it's easier to overlook them, when every penny counts, it is much more difficult.

            Having the book largely complete is definitely a way to short circuit several of them. Better attention to the backers (who, after all, made the product possible at all) would definitely be another. There are more than a handful of people who I personally know (myself included) who were mightily offended by the whole "Keep waiting patiently for the physical book you ordered, but, hey, while you're waiting, we're releasing the POD to everyone. So, though you, a backer don't have your physical book, non-backers do! Why not buy another copy to tide you over?" The fact my backer book is spiffier isn't much comfort, overall, when I want to use the book instead of trying to manage my game via the pdf.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ajax View Post

              The only way in which it is personal is the fact that I have to articulate a cost-benefit analysis and apply it to my personal situation. The factors listed are factual and problematic, to say the least. When there's money to throw around, it's easier to overlook them, when every penny counts, it is much more difficult.

              Having the book largely complete is definitely a way to short circuit several of them. Better attention to the backers (who, after all, made the product possible at all) would definitely be another. There are more than a handful of people who I personally know (myself included) who were mightily offended by the whole "Keep waiting patiently for the physical book you ordered, but, hey, while you're waiting, we're releasing the POD to everyone. So, though you, a backer don't have your physical book, non-backers do! Why not buy another copy to tide you over?" The fact my backer book is spiffier isn't much comfort, overall, when I want to use the book instead of trying to manage my game via the pdf.
              That does suck. Litho printing can take longer than POD, though. With POD, you just upload the PDFs directly, and hey presto! With litho you need to get print proofs and then faff around with printers' schedules. Publishing is not a timely business. With POD, you click a few buttons, the customer orders, and a week later the book arrives.

              TBH, I'm not fussed about getting a PDF and waiting for the print version. You could opt not to support the KS and just get the POD. But I intentionally opted to wait it out and do the opposite because I'm a book snob and want the very best version of Wr20 I can get. It's only now that V20 POD is available as one book instead of two volumes that I'm considering catching up on the titles I missed with PODs. I'd prefer to pay for PDFs and have them instantly than pay for sub-par print books at exorbitant prices. But each to their own.

              I do think more excerpts and tidbits would be better. But from OPP's perspective, once the KS is done, the writers set about writing, and Rich moves onto the next KS. Doing the KSs is pretty much a full-time job in itself. I've done two IndieGoGo campaigns and they were hard work.

              The good news is that Paradox/newWW might see an end to that cycle of KS/waiting/KS/waiting... ad infinitum. They seem to want to make the books more widely available, which suggests traditional printing and bricks and mortar distribution--back to the good old days. At least, for as long as it remains financially viable.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                That does suck. Litho printing can take longer than POD, though. With POD, you just upload the PDFs directly, and hey presto! With litho you need to get print proofs and then faff around with printers' schedules. Publishing is not a timely business. With POD, you click a few buttons, the customer orders, and a week later the book arrives.

                TBH, I'm not fussed about getting a PDF and waiting for the print version. You could opt not to support the KS and just get the POD. But I intentionally opted to wait it out and do the opposite because I'm a book snob and want the very best version of Wr20 I can get. It's only now that V20 POD is available as one book instead of two volumes that I'm considering catching up on the titles I missed with PODs. I'd prefer to pay for PDFs and have them instantly than pay for sub-par print books at exorbitant prices. But each to their own.

                I do think more excerpts and tidbits would be better. But from OPP's perspective, once the KS is done, the writers set about writing, and Rich moves onto the next KS. Doing the KSs is pretty much a full-time job in itself. I've done two IndieGoGo campaigns and they were hard work.

                The good news is that Paradox/newWW might see an end to that cycle of KS/waiting/KS/waiting... ad infinitum. They seem to want to make the books more widely available, which suggests traditional printing and bricks and mortar distribution--back to the good old days. At least, for as long as it remains financially viable.
                Just interested, but have you participated in Kickstarters for other RPG products? Many of these issues are not present in them. Some are worse, but most are able to provide the pdf and use the "crowdsourced" revision and STILL get the premium edition to the backers before or at the same time as POD are available to non-backers. Usually before, in fact. (And the quality can be better as well... )

                I think that your point about having the book mostly done by KS start obviates the need for "tantalizing tid-bits". Either things will move fast enough they aren't needed or they are readily available and usually substantively more robust.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ajax View Post

                  Just interested, but have you participated in Kickstarters for other RPG products? Many of these issues are not present in them. Some are worse, but most are able to provide the pdf and use the "crowdsourced" revision and STILL get the premium edition to the backers before or at the same time as POD are available to non-backers. Usually before, in fact. (And the quality can be better as well... )

                  I think that your point about having the book mostly done by KS start obviates the need for "tantalizing tid-bits". Either things will move fast enough they aren't needed or they are readily available and usually substantively more robust.
                  I've backed Unknown Armies and Kult. I've got a draft of the first already and I've had a few typo-riddled excerpts from the latter. The quality of the OPP material is better in every way.

                  I'm guessing other game studios opt to hold back on uploading their PDFs to POD, in that case. It's certainly an option. However, I suspect the business decision behind that is that OPP can get immediate sales from POD copies which they can funnel back into print costs for the KS edition (cashflow being what it is in publishing, money is usually spent before it's received). Publishing really doesn't make much money at all, so I understand that decision.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                    I've backed Unknown Armies and Kult. I've got a draft of the first already and I've had a few typo-riddled excerpts from the latter. The quality of the OPP material is better in every way.

                    I'm guessing other game studios opt to hold back on uploading their PDFs to POD, in that case. It's certainly an option. However, I suspect the business decision behind that is that OPP can get immediate sales from POD copies which they can funnel back into print costs for the KS edition (cashflow being what it is in publishing, money is usually spent before it's received). Publishing really doesn't make much money at all, so I understand that decision.
                    Then it's funny that it's exactly the opposite for the much larger KS for materials related to much more popular games, like D&D and Pathfinder. Or even smaller ones related to older and more cultish followings.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ajax View Post

                      Then it's funny that it's exactly the opposite for the much larger KS for materials related to much more popular games, like D&D and Pathfinder. Or even smaller ones related to older and more cultish followings.
                      D&D has a lot more money behind it, though. I, personally, don't mind PDFs and POD being available before the KS editions. You'll presumably get a PDF for free anyway, so the only difference is that you won't have a print book right away. But since mistakes are often found in earlier versions which can then be fixed in time for the deluxe editions, I'm happy to wait.

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                      • #26
                        ORPHEUS PREVIEW

                        !!!!!!


                        Just call me Lex.

                        Female pronouns for me, please.

                        Comment


                        • #27

                          The Orpheus excerpt is pretty good. Definitely invokes Orpheus with shades of Wraith in it, complete with references to various Orpheus material like pigment, Project Flatline and Grandmother along with some hints of new things. Interestingly it appears that they are going for direction where the Projectors become wraiths rather than the Shades and Lements of Orpheus. Certainly it does reference Projectors using Arcanoi rather than the Horrors of Orpheus. Understandable given they're bringing Orpheus into Wraith. However on the interesting side the excerpt does note that hues, ghosts of people excessively used pigment in life, are a thing and that wraiths seem to note that the 'wraiths' of Projectors are strange. Though that could mean anything from visually looking off to them acting strange compared to most wraiths. Personally I do kind of hope that there is something visually different from actual wraiths and those that are projectors.

                          Regardless this does give me a bit more hope for the Orpheus section of the book which is one of the things I'm most excited for and I've been plenty excited for Wr20 since long before the actual Kickstarter.

                          It kind of makes me want to go and crack open the Orpheus books again. Been years since I read the books.


                          Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
                            The Orpheus excerpt is pretty good. Definitely invokes Orpheus with shades of Wraith in it, complete with references to various Orpheus material like pigment, Project Flatline and Grandmother along with some hints of new things. Interestingly it appears that they are going for direction where the Projectors become wraiths rather than the Shades and Lements of Orpheus. Certainly it does reference Projectors using Arcanoi rather than the Horrors of Orpheus. Understandable given they're bringing Orpheus into Wraith. However on the interesting side the excerpt does note that hues, ghosts of people excessively used pigment in life, are a thing and that wraiths seem to note that the 'wraiths' of Projectors are strange. Though that could mean anything from visually looking off to them acting strange compared to most wraiths. Personally I do kind of hope that there is something visually different from actual wraiths and those that are projectors.

                            Regardless this does give me a bit more hope for the Orpheus section of the book which is one of the things I'm most excited for and I've been plenty excited for Wr20 since long before the actual Kickstarter.

                            It kind of makes me want to go and crack open the Orpheus books again. Been years since I read the books.
                            I'm dying for more crunch, to be honest. These bits of fluff are all fine, but we know the fluff already. I want crunch! Maybe that's just me.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
                              However on the interesting side the excerpt does note that hues, ghosts of people excessively used pigment in life, are a thing and that wraiths seem to note that the 'wraiths' of Projectors are strange. Though that could mean anything from visually looking off to them acting strange compared to most wraiths. Personally I do kind of hope that there is something visually different from actual wraiths and those that are projectors.
                              Maybe they don't have Deathmarks, since, ya know, they haven't died? Or they seem mucked up when using Life or Deathsight?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ajax View Post

                                Maybe they don't have Deathmarks, since, ya know, they haven't died? Or they seem mucked up when using Life or Deathsight?
                                Well the majority of Projectors have had near-death experiences so they may have deathmarks.


                                Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                                Comment

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