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  • Necromancers from Wraith perspective

    So I have a question here, from a Vampire player to Wraith players.
    How do Restless Dead react to Necromancers(such as Giovanni Vampires)?
    Is their existence common knowledge or are the wraiths who become slaves to necromancers are unfortunate few?
    How Wraith populate places with proximity to necromancers? Do they warn each other that the threat exists, or do they avoid places like that all together?
    Do Wraith Institutions such as Hiearachy have some countermeasures or policy towards them? Do they avoid provoking them to keep larger Wraith society a secret or do they organize in groups to find a way to fight back?
    What happens if group of Wraiths finds out their friend started running spy-errands for some pale dude all of a sudden. What will they do to help him, and will they do anything at all.

    In Vampire Lore, Giovanni kidnap Wraiths in huge numbers, and over the course of history they came close to a million souls held captive.
    Is this noticed by a larger Wraith community and does it have any reflection what so ever in Wraith books?

    Also, it would be helpful if someone gave me a crash-course on what useful Arcanoi Wraith can use to benefit(or hurt) the Vampire Necromancer.

    UPD: These forums are pretty dead, aint they?
    Last edited by LordOfCinder; 03-23-2016, 05:52 AM.

  • #2
    The wraiths are aware. They hate the Giovanni.

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    • #3
      That's really helpful,dude. Real detailed. Tons of insight.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post
        That's really helpful,dude. Real detailed. Tons of insight.
        How about you read a book or search the white wolf wiki?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dwight View Post

          How about you read a book or search the white wolf wiki?
          What makes you think I didn't do that? Vampires are not exactly the most important thing in Wraith.
          How much White Wolf wiki will help a Wraith player to get his head around what Vampires can do or cant? Or how Vampire society may or may not react to one thing or the other. Which Disciplines can target ghosts and which can't?
          Every World of Darkness setting has its own know-hows and logic which comes with experience.

          I came to these sub-forum to exchange information and cool ideas, and what I get is this. I don't really understand the reason for that.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post

            What makes you think I didn't do that? Vampires are not exactly the most important thing in Wraith.
            How much White Wolf wiki will help a Wraith player to get his head around what Vampires can do or cant? Or how Vampire society may or may not react to one thing or the other. Which Disciplines can target ghosts and which can't?
            Every World of Darkness setting has its own know-hows and logic which comes with experience.

            I came to these sub-forum to exchange information and cool ideas, and what I get is this. I don't really understand the reason for that.

            Read Clanbook: Giovanni? Read Mediums: Speakers with the Dead? Those have the info you require.

            Unfortunately, trying to summarise the entirety of wraiths' interactions with necromancers would take too long and I'm not required to provide you with detail. You asked a question and I answered it. I've now gone on to explain where you can go to find some further information.

            More importantly, though, the answer is kinda up to you and the demands of your game. It's not hard to extrapolate how wraiths would react to necromancers, but this is something best played out. The needs of your game may vary.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post
              UPD: These forums are pretty dead, aint they?

              Hey-Ooooh!

              I’ll try to fill in some of the blanks with musings based (more or less) on canon. Keep in mind that WtO Second Edition had perspectives based on an older version of the game. For example, the two big (only?) Necromancy vampires were the Samedi and Giovanni (and Nagarja, which I want to call Naranja – which is hilarious without the proper amount of caffeine!).

              Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post
              How do Restless Dead react to Necromancers (such as Giovanni Vampires)?
              Is their existence common knowledge or are the wraiths who become slaves to necromancers are unfortunate few?

              In WtO Second, three Clans are listed as antagonists; the Giovanni and the Tremere. The Samedi were also mentioned, but with less hostility (iirc). This was also when Necromancy was built like a normal Discipline, without Paths and Rituals.
              To be honest, “The wraiths are aware. They hate the Giovanni,” is fairly accurate. Between wards and bindings, however, many of the wraithly enslaved have few – if any options – of retribution.
              There’s also a funny power dichotomy. Older wraiths – some have been around as long as some vampire – have the supernatural wherewithal to resist Necromancy and go toe-to-toe with ectoplasmic Slavers. Older wraiths tend to lose touch with their Fetters [things that anchor them to the world of the living] and spend almost all their time in the Tempest [the deep underworld proper, away from the lands of the living]. The likelihood of a Giovanni summoning and binding one of these ghostly badasses is very slim.

              Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post
              How Wraith populate places with proximity to necromancers? Do they warn each other that the threat exists, or do they avoid places like that all together?


              Wraiths like to hang out in places called Haunts. Haunts are buildings that have a lot of death mojo. These places tend to have a lighter Shroud (think ghost Gauntlet) which makes some of their powers easier. I think it also makes some Necromancy powers easier as well, but I could be wrong.

              Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post
              Do Wraith Institutions such as Hierarchy have some countermeasures or policy towards them? Do they avoid provoking them to keep larger Wraith society a secret or do they organize in groups to find a way to fight back?


              Stygian society [the oppressive government of the “Western” dead] enforces a law called Dictum Mortuum (sp?). It’s a catchall stipulation against interfering with the lands of the living. Depending on the legal interpretation (both IC and OOC), it could (or couldn’t) apply to vampires. Some groups in the Hierarchy (such as the Grim Legion) will turn a blind-eye to wraiths avenging their own murders, even if that murder took place at the fangs of a vampire.

              In the halls of Stygian power, there are several Legions based on how people died. Each Legion is led by a Deathlord. These are ghosts that are somewhere between vampire elder and methuselah (-ish). Below them are less powerful but no-less-impressive ghosts. They exist exclusively in the deep underworld (the Tempest, where Stygia proper is located). They don’t have much, if any, interaction with the vampires.

              I imagine Deathlords react to vampires summoning their Legionaries in the same way corporate CEOs react to their employees getting called for jury duty; it’s a pain in the ass but as long as someone else fills his spot and his work gets done, they don’t really care.

              I won’t touch on Enoch…

              Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post
              Also, it would be helpful if someone gave me a crash-course on what useful Arcanoi Wraith can use to benefit (or hurt) the Vampire Necromancer.

              Off the top of my head, in no particular order:

              Pandemonium: Poltergeist/Beetlejuice-type stuff.
              Outrage: GhostPunchitude
              Puppetry: Skinriding and possession. I’m not sure about vampires, but maybe ghouls?
              Embody: Manifesting a wraith’s Corpus [ectoplasmic body] across the Shroud and into the real world.

              Last edited by Nazfool; 03-24-2016, 10:46 AM.


              This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
              (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
              ").

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              • #8
                Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                ...this is something best played out. The needs of your game may vary.
                Also, this!
                If you want wraiths and vampires to have a more symbiotic relationship (like goblins and wizards in the Harry Potter universe?), go for it!



                This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
                (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
                ").

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                • #9
                  I remember the last time I had some vamps cross wraiths, some wraith had an Arcanos that let him light things on fire. That was VERY effective at getting the vamps to leave post--haste. I can't remember which Arcanos it was off the top of my head. Outrage? Pandemonium?

                  Wraiths have a LOT of powers, so their ability to mess with vampires they don't like is limited only by creative application (and possible arrest for violation of the Dictum in some necropoli). They could dissolve the wall of a haven and let the sunshine in with Alchemy. Or break it down with Outrage. If you think vamps dream while down for the count, they can make their daytime "rest" a living hell. Between Puppetry and Inhabit (depending on how you slice the animation factor of a vampire's body), it's pretty easy to walk through the walls of a vamps haven while he's asleep, possess him and have him go sunbathing.

                  I'm sure most necromancers use Ward Against Ghosts to protect themselves from angry ghosts. There are a lot more wraiths in your average necropolis than vampires in the Skinlands version of the same. Pissing off a lot of them by flagrant use of Necromancy is probably not wise. I'm betting the Giovanni as just as much "rats in the walls" of the Shadowlands as they are in the vampire world.
                  Last edited by Ajax; 03-25-2016, 01:42 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Thank you fellas, that was really helpful.

                    Nazfool's post was just what I was looking for. Brief and detailed at the same time=)

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                    • #11
                      I believe Wraith: the Great War mentions an organization called the Bloody Legion, formed by members of the Grim Legion (the ghost of those that died by violence) that combat necromancers who try to enslave wraiths.

                      Vampire has a tendency to make it seem like vampires are on top, and therefore portray the Giovanni as just dominating wraiths. My own view is that this is grossly exaggerated. I believe that Giovanni likely only enslave those wraiths their own mortal family produces, plus any associates. Its very limited in terms of wraiths of completely unassociated with the Giovanni - say those wraiths that interfere with them. I believe the whole million wraiths enslaved just is not possible from the perspective of the Wraith game - certainly not in the time frame when the Giovanni have been operational. Then again, I also see the Giovanni clan as being much smaller in number than other people.

                      The Hierarchy actually has a lot resources at its disposal, and it can make things very difficult for their enemies.

                      I believe there are a lot of red lines in place, and provided the Giovanni limit their depridations and don't cause trouble for wraiths protected by the Hierarchy, they are left alone. In turn, the Giovanni don't bother wraiths outside their purview.

                      The fact is if you review the enemies of the Hierarchy, necromancers like the Giovanni are really low on the totem pole in terms of risk and danger. The Hierarchy could squash them like a bug, but need to concentrate on bigger threats. This doesn't mean the Giovanni can do whatever they like, but there are limits. As long as Giovanni stay with them, the Hierarchy ignores them or limits their responses. If the Giovanni get too big for their britches, then the big dogs come out.

                      But it all depends on the assumptions you make in your own games, and what you need in terms of plot.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                        The fact is if you review the enemies of the Hierarchy, necromancers like the Giovanni are really low on the totem pole in terms of risk and danger. The Hierarchy could squash them like a bug, but need to concentrate on bigger threats. This doesn't mean the Giovanni can do whatever they like, but there are limits. As long as Giovanni stay with them, the Hierarchy ignores them or limits their responses. If the Giovanni get too big for their britches, then the big dogs come out.
                        That what I always had hard time getting my head around. On the one hand Vampire Necromancers are not nearly as numerous as Wraith's. Necromancy however has some hardcore effects, and it's strange that in official books there are no reaction to that. I mean Necromancers can bind ghosts and send them across the world, collect 5 to 6 of them in a "magic jar"(!) or make them violate there own laws(force them to interact with skinlands).
                        It is also a big mystery why Necromancers themselves apparently know NOTHING about larger Underworld(or know little).
                        I would like to portray Underworld as full of potential retaliation in my game, but logic of the setting really confuses me sometimes. I am strictly against X can squash Y like a bug in World of Darkness though. It doesn't make a good story, IMO.

                        So far my idea is that during the game, Necro players will witness ghostly legion entering the city and maybe their interactions with ghosts will become less safe.

                        Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                        The Hierarchy actually has a lot resources at its disposal, and it can make things very difficult for their enemies.
                        What resources except for raw manpower and relic suicide bombers?


                        Last edited by LordOfCinder; 03-28-2016, 06:10 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post
                          It is also a big mystery why Necromancers themselves apparently know NOTHING about larger Underworld(or know little).

                          I see it is a matter of not caring and/or not thinking to ask. They have this ectoplasmic peon, they know ghosts are real, etc., but probably don’t think to ask about the larger underworld.

                          Also, the wraiths that vampiric necromancers are summoning might not be the most knowledgeable when it comes to the Tempest and what not. OOC, wraith players are confused by the layout the underworld sometimes (I’ll admit to it). If players – with access to gaming books - get confused, imagine how confusing it must be for a freshly dead wraith.
                          Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post
                          So far my idea is that during the game, Necro players will witness ghostly legion entering the city and maybe their interactions with ghosts will become less safe.

                          I dig it. Maybe it’s a quiet town (on one side of the Shroud) with a few dozen wraiths that are fodder for the necromancers. One of their “contacts” gives them a warning; something called the Hierarchy is coming into the city.
                          Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post
                          What resources except for raw manpower and relic suicide bombers?

                          Please keep in mind, some of this depends on how you run things with WtO and pending changes from Wr20. Some of this is from my table and other bits are from the books.

                          I think my favorite “kill a fangbanger” tactic used at my table is the use of Embody by someone proficiently wielding a Stygian Steel sword. It’s a sword made out souls, tempered with ore mined from hell…basically. Since Stygian steel weapons inflict aggravated damage to wraiths my troupe inferred that they cause aggravated damage to any hapless supernatural critter unlucky enough to be caught by its edge. We also inferred that Embody allows wraiths to bring in-possession relics/artifacts across the Shroud with them (completely unlike the process becoming Risen).

                          Imagine a Hierarchy-sanctioned strike force (given leave to break the Dictum Mortuum and cross the Shroud via Embody) and armed with weapons that can send a vampire to Final Death, deployed to deal with a “troublesome” necromancer.

                          The other example, on the extreme other end of the spectrum is Enoch. Specifically, what happened to Enoch. In the fiction between chapters in Book of the Legions, when asked if he possesses a nuke the Smiling Lord (one of the uber-wraith Deathlords) responds with, “One, several, let’s not quibble over numbers.” If push came to shove and Stygia decided that a group of vampires needed to be ash, they could make it happen. Clan Giovanni, for all their “lord of the dead” talk, doesn’t interfere with Stygian business that much. As far as the Deathlords are concerned, even Uncle Augie is just an occasional nuisance.

                          The best way to think about the capabilities of the Hierarchy is to imagine the military capabilities of a modern country (the largest I think are the PRC and USA) and make some small tweaks. Bullets, for example, are harder to come by but every soldier has some supernatural ability. Then make the leaders of that country on-par with vampire methuselahs.

                          I imagine it’s not just capabilities; the cost is equally horrific. The Pathos (ghostly version of Blood Points) needed to power the equipment, the time it takes to call in reserve Legionaries, the logistics of leaving Necropoli (centers of wraithly population) poorly defended, etc. This sort of thing would be astronomically expensive. A small coterie of blood-drinking necromancers that summon and bind Shadowland-bound wraiths may not be worth the time it takes to organize a strike force. Unless, of course, the coteries has done something majorly piss off an Anacreon (kind of like a Prince-ish).

                          [Note: I’m sure there are a few things I’m forgetting or haven’t considered but other forum users will bring them up. ]


                          This is what happens when an Abyssal Exalted ends up in H.o.L.
                          (Also known as "Derpwraith" and "PretentiousFontsGuy
                          ").

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LordOfCinder View Post


                            What resources except for raw manpower and relic suicide bombers?

                            Probably something akin to the Doomslayers. A contingent of gaunt bio-exorcists sanctioned that highest levels who have permission to use all sorts of Arcanoi that are typically forbidden by the Dictum. There are A LOT of ways vampires could be made utterly miserable (to the point of True Death) by such and few of them take relic suicide bombers or raw manpower (more specific application of expertise and a lot of it).

                            A single Necromancer causing medial levels of disturbance to the functioning of the necropolis would be the Anacreon's problem and the solution would need to be appropriately discrete, but anyone causing significant disturbances would probably be able to ask for help from Stygia (Oh, the loss of face!) and get 1 or so of these bad boys out to handle their problems. A full-on action would probably take a rapacious cabal of Necromancers without any care or subtlety.

                            There are a LOT more wraiths than vampires, so the numbers would end up being in the Hierarchy's favor if they wished to bring the force of the Dark Kingdom against offending vampires.

                            But, the Hierarchy probably doesn't care so much about unaffiliated wraiths, Renegades or Heretics, so it would be possible to target such wraiths (Membership does have it's privileges). And it would be possible to simply "luck out" and end up snagging such wraiths as the vast majority of those the Necromancer is necromancing.

                            Oh, plus, I'm sure, there are wraiths out there that are more than happy to add Necromancers to their client list. Look at the economy of Stygia. Selling off other wraiths to Necromancers would just be another market, possibly a chancey one if the Dictum applies, but, oh, the FAVORS that could be exchanged.

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                            • #15
                              My suspicion is that the 'million wraiths' thing refers to *every wraith the Giovanni have every caught*, rather than all those currently in captivity. Otherwise it's simply a lie (remember how the Crazy 88 didn't really have 88 members?). Then again, there are potentially billions of wraiths in the Underworld, so maybe they do. Maybe they're all drones animated by the will of the necromancer who summons them? That would make more sense.

                              I've also always played the Giovanni as a tiny clan, in comparison to the others. They aren't numerous enough to cause most necropoli any real trouble. And those wraiths they do enslave are presumably unable to become spectres or, if they can, are unable to cause havoc because they're bound.
                              Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 03-31-2016, 03:52 PM.

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