Hiring Garou Mercenaries In The Underworld

[Lin Liren]

I wonder why Wraiths don't do this more often.

1A) The Average-Wraith is an Average-Joe, and The Average Garou is trained, hardened-experienced Werewolf-Warrior who can tear DOZENS of enemies, physical or spiritual, into confetti in a heartbeat.
1B) AND you never just meet ONE average Garou, Werewolves travel in PACKS as a rule.
1C) This would be an un-life saving Godsend in Tempests and Maelstroms where *dozens* of Specters are pounding on your door.

2) Being able to travel between the worlds of The Living AND the Dead, the Garou can act as liasons and ambassadors for Wraiths who need business done on the other side of the shroud.

3) How would a Wraith go about actually hiring Garou if this option is considered? How would Wraiths pay for this service?

4) It would be safe to assume that Specters would also hire the services of Black Spiral Dancers too, yes? Those psychos and sociopaths are practically Specters with flesh bodies, after all.

Edit: For those who just arrived (Warning: Disturbing Topic)

5) Garou who get TOO furious in their Rage fall into "The Thrall of the Wyrm", wherein the unholy-anger in the darkness of their Homid, Metis or Lupus natures compels them to Cannibalize, Violate or Desecrate their fallen enemies.
In the Dark Umbra, a Wraith or Specter is as tangible as Flesh to a Garou who has stepped into that world, so it would be safe to assume that a Garou in the Thrall of The Wyrm would attempt to Eat, Rape or Dismember a fallen-Wraith too, yes?


Food for thought.

[Aya Tari]

Most Garou are incapable and/or unwilling to go to the Dark Umbra.

[Nazfool]

Disclaimer: My WtA knowledge is a bit limited.

To my understanding, only the Silent Striders have much to do (if anything) with the Dark Umbra. When they do, it’s under special circumstances that [I think] involve one Garou. I think a werewolf getting into the Shadowlands is nowhere near as easy as stepping sideways into the Prenumbra. I don’t see this scenario happening with any regularity in WtA RAW.

It does, however, sound like a neat idea for a small group [camp?] of werewolves that make it their business to help like this. Off the top of my head, something like the Acolytes of Anubis, an ancient sect of Silent Striders that does [stuff you talked you about].

Again, my WtA experience isn’t extensive, so I’m not sure how far in the ballpark I’m in.

[nothing]

All right, the counterpoints:

I wonder why Wraiths don't do this more often.

1A) The Average-Wraith is an Average-Joe, and The Average Garou is trained, hardened-experienced Werewolf-Warrior who can tear DOZENS of enemies, physical or spiritual, into confetti in a heartbeat.
1B) AND you never just meet ONE average Garou, Werewolves travel in PACKS as a rule.
1C) This would be an un-life saving Godsend in Tempests and Maelstroms where *dozens* of Specters are pounding on your door.

#notallGarou, but that's neither here nor there; Spectres travel in packs as well, and a cohort of Shades lead by an effective and competent Nephwrack is easily on par with an Garou pack. In fact, I would put money on a pack of Striplings over a werewolf pack, thanks to the Hive-Mind; in Maelstroms, it's more like hundreds, if not thousands of Spectres. Maelstroms are literally described as waves of Spectres, and not piddly little ones - tsunami-sized.

2) Being able to travel between the worlds of The Living AND the Dead, the Garou can act as liasons and ambassadors for Wraiths who need business done on the other side of the shroud.

The Silent Striders already do this to an extent, as do Sluagh Changelings, but they're scattered and few in number. They are also not usually the ...most combat-oriented... of the Tribes.

3) How would a Wraith go about actually hiring Garou if this option is considered? How would Wraiths pay for this service?

Like they do with everything: Pathos and favors. Using Usury, Wraiths can pour Pathos into Garou and Caerns, though it's tainted with Underworld "flavor."

4) It would be safe to assume that Specters would also hire the services of Black Spiral Dancers too, yes? Those psychos and sociopaths are practically Specters with flesh bodies, after all.

All bad guys work together, until they don't.

Cheers!

[Lin Liren]

(Warning: Disturbing Topic)

5) Garou who get TOO furious in their Rage fall into "The Thrall of the Wyrm", wherein the unholy-anger in the darkness of their Homid, Metis or Lupus natures compels them to Cannibalize, Violate or Desecrate their fallen enemies.
In the Dark Umbra, a Wraith or Specter is as tangible as Flesh to a Garou who has stepped into that world, so it would be safe to assume that a Garou in the Thrall of The Wyrm would attempt to Eat, Rape or Dismember a fallen-Wraith too, yes?

[Prince of the Night]

Disclaimer: My WtA knowledge is a bit limited.

To my understanding, only the Silent Striders have much to do (if anything) with the Dark Umbra. When they do, it’s under special circumstances that [I think] involve one Garou. I think a werewolf getting into the Shadowlands is nowhere near as easy as stepping sideways into the Prenumbra. I don’t see this scenario happening with any regularity in WtA RAW.

It does, however, sound like a neat idea for a small group [camp?] of werewolves that make it their business to help like this. Off the top of my head, something like the Acolytes of Anubis, an ancient sect of Silent Striders that does [stuff you talked you about].

Again, my WtA experience isn’t extensive, so I’m not sure how far in the ballpark I’m in.

Nazfool how do I get the wraith badge on my user avatar?

And same reason that Changelings or the Romani or Mages dont hire Garou mercenarys, those likely willing to work for money are likely going to be moonlighting, doing it for thrills or "Doing somethiong new"

or because they NEED the money for a practical purpose.

[wander]

(Warning: Disturbing Topic)

5) Garou who get TOO furious in their Rage fall into "The Thrall of the Wyrm", wherein the unholy-anger in the darkness of their Homid, Metis or Lupus natures compels them to Cannibalize, Violate or Desecrate their fallen enemies.
In the Dark Umbra, a Wraith or Specter is as tangible as Flesh to a Garou who has stepped into that world, so it would be safe to assume that a Garou in the Thrall of The Wyrm would attempt to Eat, Rape or Dismember a fallen-Wraith too, yes?

I'd rule that as a 'Yeah, they would' if this happened, though as mentioned above, Garou entering the Dark Umbra is a bit of a rarity.

[Lin Liren]

Thoughts for the morning:

1) Would the willingness to accept jobs be increased if the Hiring Wraith happens to be Garou kinfolk?
The Garou ARE famous for Dearly-Loving their Families, after all, even if they are equally infamous for treating them like second-class citizens. (Well, except the heartless Shadow Lords of course, who don't love ANYONE period)


2) I bet nothing will get an Alpha-Elder charging into Stygia with Dozen-Strong Pack than the ghost of his precious little girl begging Daddy to save her from the clutches of an over-enthusiastic artificer dragging her to the Soul-Forge.

3A) Fetishes are sacred objects bound with spirits to give them power: The Giovani Vampires are infamous for substituting Gaian Spirits with Wraiths for their own Equivalents
3B) Would a Garou who is heartless/amoral and willing enough be able to do that also?

3C) AHA! I just figured out the QUICKEST way for an aspiring-schemer to get rid of the Giovani Vampires in ONE foul swoop!

1) Find the Kinfolk-Ghost of a Garou *Elder*, preferably their precious Little-Boy/Little Girl
2) Trick an over-enthusiastic/stupid Giovani Necromancer residing in the Clan's Venice Headquarters into binding that Beloved-Child into a Fetish.
3) Have said Necromancer USE said Fetish, record him in the act of doing so
4) Send nightmares of said child crying for Daddy's/Mommy's Help, with the Video Tape of the Fetish-Use sent by Fed-Ex to the door of the Werewolf-Elder the VERY next morning.
5) As said Elder is crying screaming and smashing furniture, point in the direction of said stupid Necromancer's closest relative
6) Wave goodbye as The Elder takes a band of *Champion* Werewolf-Warriors on a quest to beat-torture-claw and interrogate their way up the Giovani food-chain to Venice.
7) Grab a Coke And Popcorn, Find a good spot on the Tower of Saint Marco's Square Venice, play "The Benny Hill Show" theme music on a 10-hour loop, and enjoy watching the Giovani Clan burn.
8) See, wasn't that easy. (Again, won't work with Shadow Lords, who *don't* love their family)

[nothing]

I'm just going to focus on this right here:

2) I bet nothing will get an Alpha-Elder charging into Stygia with Dozen-Strong Pack than the ghost of his precious little girl begging Daddy to save her from the clutches of an over-enthusiastic artificer dragging her to the Soul-Forge.

Charging into Stygia is a suicide mission. I don't care if you bring every Ahroun from every Tribe, on a perpetual full moon, they will lose, and lose badly. If it's just a military operation, the Deathlords will wipe them from existence, and have new rugs in their palaces. The Garou wold have a better chance just diving into the Labyrinth and fighting a Neverborn, because then they wouldn't have died for completely selfish and stupid reasons. Stygia, the Deathlords, and their Legions routinely fight the forces of non-existence, so a few packs of werewolves isn't going to be more than an amusing annoyance (though they might have more success in some far-flung Necropoli).

And this doesn't even get into what the rest of Garou society would say about such a plan.

Cheers!

[adambeyoncelowe]

Thoughts for the morning:

1) Would the willingness to accept jobs be increased if the Hiring Wraith happens to be Garou kinfolk?
The Garou ARE famous for Dearly-Loving their Families, after all, even if they are equally infamous for treating them like second-class citizens. (Well, except the heartless Shadow Lords of course, who don't love ANYONE period)


2) I bet nothing will get an Alpha-Elder charging into Stygia with Dozen-Strong Pack than the ghost of his precious little girl begging Daddy to save her from the clutches of an over-enthusiastic artificer dragging her to the Soul-Forge.

3A) Fetishes are sacred objects bound with spirits to give them power: The Giovani Vampires are infamous for substituting Gaian Spirits with Wraiths for their own Equivalents
3B) Would a Garou who is heartless/amoral and willing enough be able to do that also?

3C) AHA! I just figured out the QUICKEST way for an aspiring-schemer to get rid of the Giovani Vampires in ONE foul swoop!

1) Find the Kinfolk-Ghost of a Garou *Elder*, preferably their precious Little-Boy/Little Girl
2) Trick an over-enthusiastic/stupid Giovani Necromancer residing in the Clan's Venice Headquarters into binding that Beloved-Child into a Fetish.
3) Have said Necromancer USE said Fetish, record him in the act of doing so
4) Send nightmares of said child crying for Daddy's/Mommy's Help, with the Video Tape of the Fetish-Use sent by Fed-Ex to the door of the Werewolf-Elder the VERY next morning.
5) As said Elder is crying screaming and smashing furniture, point in the direction of said stupid Necromancer's closest relative
6) Wave goodbye as The Elder takes a band of *Champion* Werewolf-Warriors on a quest to beat-torture-claw and interrogate their way up the Giovani food-chain to Venice.
7) Grab a Coke And Popcorn, Find a good spot on the Tower of Saint Marco's Square Venice, play "The Benny Hill Show" theme music on a 10-hour loop, and enjoy watching the Giovani Clan burn.
8) See, wasn't that easy. (Again, won't work with Shadow Lords, who *don't* love their family)

Werewolves are stupid but they're not *that* stupid.

[Nazfool]

Stygia is a large and industrialized military fortress-city (essentially) that’s governed by Deathlords that are (roughly) on par with vampire Antediluvians (or Methuselahs). That would be, as others have said, a suicide mission. More than that, it’s a stupid death. Imagine Leroy Jenkins as a Get Ahroun. Helldiving into the Labyrinth (like nothing mentioned) to fight Neverborn (ancient primordial evils that are not-ftagn) might still be a suicide mission, but at least it carries a better promise of Renown.

[Lin Liren]

On the subject of Renown:

Even though they are already dead, would Defending Innocent Wraiths (Kinfolk-wraiths in particular) against a massive attack of Specters (Wyrmspawn in practice if not category) earn Glory and Honor for the Defending Garou Warriors in question? Under the Categories of "Successfully Protecting A Human/Kinfolk" and "Defeating Wyrm Minions" I mean.

[adambeyoncelowe]

On the subject of Renown:

Even though they are already dead, would Defending Innocent Wraiths (Kinfolk-wraiths in particular) against a massive attack of Specters (Wyrmspawn in practice if not category) earn Glory and Honor for the Defending Garou Warriors in question? Under the Categories of "Successfully Protecting A Human/Kinfolk" and "Defeating Wyrm Minions" I mean.

It'd probably fall under the 'he's a moron' category. Battling a spectral hive in the Skinlands? Sure. But in the Shadowlands or Tempest? You'd just look like a lunatic...

[Nazfool]

On the subject of Renown:

Even though they are already dead, would Defending Innocent Wraiths (Kinfolk-wraiths in particular) against a massive attack of Specters (Wyrmspawn in practice if not category) earn Glory and Honor for the Defending Garou Warriors in question? Under the Categories of "Successfully Protecting A Human/Kinfolk" and "Defeating Wyrm Minions" I mean.

Personally, I’m inclined to say No (with room for very, very rare and heroic exceptions). To my understanding, Kinfolk are honored because the pass on the magic werewolf juice in their DNA; after they’re dead, I’m sure they’re respected, but is it really given any more thought in garou culture? Finally, if the kinfolk in question are worthy of such grand gestures of help, why are they ghosts? Being a ghost doesn’t make you bad, but it’s nowhere near the ancestor shtick of the fuzzies. Why are the kinfolk Restless?

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Personally, I’m inclined to say No (with room for very, very rare and heroic exceptions). To my understanding, Kinfolk are honored because the pass on the magic werewolf juice in their DNA; after they’re dead, I’m sure they’re respected, but is it really given any more thought in garou culture? Finally, if the kinfolk in question are worthy of such grand gestures of help, why are they ghosts? Being a ghost doesn’t make you bad, but it’s nowhere near the ancestor shtick of the fuzzies. Why are the kinfolk Restless?

No, not in their DNA. You won't find anything there.