Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Soul Loss and Crossover

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Soul Loss and Crossover

    What happens to the following splats when targeted with an effect that leads to soul loss? I'll be editing this OP to include various conjectures.

    Speculative
    Vampires - Can lose their souls to Diablerie, which normally requires killing them. Probably suffers Soul Loss normally.
    Werewolves - Possibly suffers Soulless normally. If the soul is replaced with a different soul, they suffer the persistent Madness condition.
    Prometheans - If their soul analog is removed, you're probably looking at a Firestorm
    Changelings - Their powers stem from what's left of their Soul being infused with Wyrd. I'd treat it similarly to Mages
    Sin-Eaters - Their soul is merged with their Geist. Probably unremovable.
    Demons - Don't have souls. Possibly suffer a Compromise when it would have been lost.

    Confirmed.
    Humans and Hunters - Suffer Soulless.
    Beasts - Die.
    Mummies - Immune to Soul Loss, iirc.
    Last edited by lnodiv; 01-30-2017, 01:18 PM.

  • #2
    With Prometheans, their "soul" is a mote of Divine Fire, so I assume ripping it out would ignite a Firestorm.


    Genius: the Transgression 2E is a thing that's being worked on.

    Comment


    • #3
      If you ripped the human soul, a Beast would probably go on a Hunger-frenzy, either in the dreamscape or even in the physical world

      Probably a similar thing would happen to Sin-Eaters. With the body being left entirely to the control of the Geist. Whether that's good, bad or neutral depends on the Geist involved


      A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

      Comment


      • #4
        Well, I'd imagine that Werewolves would become an Empty Wolf. Idigam can tear out their souls and replace them with other souls, or with Spirits, creating powerful Claimed with the body and natural abilities of the Uratha. If another soul, or a Spirit, isn't inserted into the Werewolf, I'd imagine they keep all the usual stuff, but they can't learn new Gifts or Facets, nor can they gain new Renown brands.

        I think they'd experience the Soulless Condition normally, but you'd have to decide if Blood or Bone leads more towards Spirit or Flesh in order to calculate to which extreme they experience Breaking Points towards. I think the Werewolf would need to hit Harmony 1 to reach Eneverated, but I've never run a Soulless Werewolf. Would they lose Primal Urge at all from falling Willpower? I don't think they should, since that's explicitly a Mage thing due to the fact that their power stems from an Awakened Soul and Will. When they hit Thrall I doubt the Werewolf would gain the Broken Condition, but maybe they'd have the Madness Condition instead? With its dice penalty applied to resisting Kuruth?

        One of the Unchained would probably become one of the Burned, unless they had another Cover as a backup. So, that means the Hunted Condition and the Blown Condition. It also means they might react, violently, in their newly exposed Demonic Form towards whoever took their Cover.


        My Homebrew Hub

        Comment


        • #5
          Beasts die. It's in the book.

          Or I thought it was. Tried to find a reference but I couldn't.


          "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
          She/her, contributing writer for Scion: Pride 2021

          Comment


          • #6
            Well, if the Horror dies they do. I think there was a reference back in the old Kickstarter versions of Beast, when the Nightmare "You Are Meat" was still a power you could get. But I figure there's a more interesting answer than 'they die' available. Maybe a Beast subject to the Soulless Condition starts hemorrhaging Satiety? They start regaining Willpower like a Hero (one point from Life, all from Legend) and indulging Legend means losing a point of Satiety. Eventually, they'd hit Ravenous and go on a horrendous rampage, if they didn't succumb to rage and despair and undergo the Merger before that.


            My Homebrew Hub

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Arcanist View Post
              Well, if the Horror dies they do. I think there was a reference back in the old Kickstarter versions of Beast, when the Nightmare "You Are Meat" was still a power you could get. But I figure there's a more interesting answer than 'they die' available. Maybe a Beast subject to the Soulless Condition starts hemorrhaging Satiety? They start regaining Willpower like a Hero (one point from Life, all from Legend) and indulging Legend means losing a point of Satiety. Eventually, they'd hit Ravenous and go on a horrendous rampage, if they didn't succumb to rage and despair and undergo the Merger before that.
              Well, the problem is that the Horror is the Beast's Soul. It's not like a Sin-Eater/Geist situation where one's riding the other. I get that "And then they died" can be boring, but it's also not easy to inflict Beasts with a Soulless Condition. I think they even say they're immune to most ways (pre-Archmastery Supernal magic, Demons, etc...).


              "Nihhina kalekal-zidu kal masun, kal manudanadu. Nihhina kalekal-zidu nukal shaghu-desasudu — nihhina kalekal-zidu kal innu-desasudu udhkal samm." Arthur Ashe
              She/her, contributing writer for Scion: Pride 2021

              Comment


              • #8
                Vampires do not suffer soul loss by effects that normally cause soul loss in humans in the VtR core book.

                I'll be a bit boring and say that it's probably the same for all non-human/Mage splats that don't have their own rules for dealing with soul loss.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                Comment


                • #9
                  For Demon, I'd lean towards "they aren't human and never were, so they don't have a soul to steal." Partly for continuity with oWoD where the Fallen were explicitly immune to soul loss, I think that's a good trait for a demon to have.


                  2E Legacy Updates
                  Brotherhood of the Demon Wind
                  Choir of Hashmallim (plus extra Summoning content)
                  Storm Keepers

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Caladriu View Post
                    For Demon, I'd lean towards "they aren't human and never were, so they don't have a soul to steal." Partly for continuity with oWoD where the Fallen were explicitly immune to soul loss, I think that's a good trait for a demon to have.
                    I would probably have a Demon make a Compromise roll instead of suffering actual Soul Loss.


                    Genius: the Transgression 2E is a thing that's being worked on.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Beasts have a goetia instead of a soul. If a mage tries to remove it using Death, nothing happens because it's the wrong arcarnum and they need to use Mind.

                      I have no idea what happens if they actually manage to get it out.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                        Vampires do not suffer soul loss by effects that normally cause soul loss in humans in the VtR core book.

                        I'll be a bit boring and say that it's probably the same for all non-human/Mage splats that don't have their own rules for dealing with soul loss.
                        This is accurate, though not the most exciting answer. However, many splats have implications of how soullessness might affect them - it's just caused by other means. Werewolves, for example, can have their souls removed by Idigam, which turns them into Su'Ur. The sidebar in Requiem about Solace suggests that the drug returne them to life for one night, and could be read as implying that it does so by rendering them (temporarily?) soulless.

                        Prometheans don't have Souls yet, so I don't think there's any question that soul removing effects simply don't work on them.


                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                          Beasts have a goetia instead of a soul. If a mage tries to remove it using Death, nothing happens because it's the wrong arcarnum and they need to use Mind.

                          I have no idea what happens if they actually manage to get it out.
                          This is not only wrong, but Beasts' corebook clearly says what happens. The mage has to use Death 5, but mages can steal Beasts' souls.


                          Dave Brookshaw

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                            Werewolves, for example, can have their souls removed by Idigam, which turns them into Su'Ur.
                            Technically, Su'ur are only created when an idigam replaces said soul with a spirit. If the soul is replaced with another soul, they gain a Persistent Madness Condition, as on p219, 'If it replaces the werewolf’s soul with a spirit, this immediately creates an Empty Wolf, a unique type of Claimed that retains some of the Uratha’s supernatural abilities. If the idigam does this with a soul, the werewolf suffers the persistent Madness Condition.'

                            Considering the ability is Forge Empty Wolf, and refers specifically to taking a werewolf's soul and replacing it, it doesn't seem like an idigam can just take the soul out and leave it empty. At least not using that ability. Or, if so, it doesn't create anything special except a werewolf with the Soulless Condition.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nofather View Post

                              Technically, Su'ur are only created when an idigam replaces said soul with a spirit. If the soul is replaced with another soul, they gain a Persistent Madness Condition, as on p219, 'If it replaces the werewolf’s soul with a spirit, this immediately creates an Empty Wolf, a unique type of Claimed that retains some of the Uratha’s supernatural abilities. If the idigam does this with a soul, the werewolf suffers the persistent Madness Condition.'

                              Considering the ability is Forge Empty Wolf, and refers specifically to taking a werewolf's soul and replacing it, it doesn't seem like an idigam can just take the soul out and leave it empty. At least not using that ability. Or, if so, it doesn't create anything special except a werewolf with the Soulless Condition.
                              Mhmm, that's right. Sorry, I misremembered how that worked.


                              Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X