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[Hurt Locker] How does Capacity Mechanic work

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  • #16
    Thank you!

    2) I think my personal problem was, since the rules don't talk about "normal" shooting in hurt locker, that I was somehow assuming that you can only use bursts with every gun with the rules update. Representing that you shoot more than once. But actually you have two types of attacks.

    3) I finally understand the problem here.. and why you created that condition. There should be a limit instead of vanishing ammunition. I think the limit what a person can carry, if she wants to, should remain the same. The maximum limit in the "Loaded for Bear Merit " is two reloads. That's way I would personally change it a little bit.
    With that merit the payment of the ammunition is always included, isn't it? Otherwise there would be no difference to the condition, I believe.

    5) None of them bought that during character creation, I believe... ^^

    Edit: We just started and didn't have a real combat so far, but one of my players told me, that he would prefer an abstract system over counting bullets.
    Last edited by Elythia; 02-11-2017, 03:17 PM.

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    • #17
      A question to people who played with this hack: have you ever ran out of ammo? I'm not a fan of this, because while I understand reasoning behind out of ammo mechanic, it never felt right for me. Mostly because instead of dramatic, it feels fake to me. But I have an issue with "directed" (as in, arranged by a director, like a movie director) dramatism, so it might be because of that. Ammo counting feels much more dramatic to me because it's dramatism is emergent gameplay.

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      • #18
        There are a few differences between Loaded for Bear and Pocket Full of Shells. The Cobdition is bought like equipment and is one-time use. The Merit is bought with Experiences and can be used a number of times each scene equal to your dots in the Merit. So, the theoretical limit to the number of times you could restore a weapon to full capacity would be 3. Two for the twp dot version of Loaded for Bear, and one for Pocket Full of Shells. However, you have to re-buy Pocket Full of Shells with Resources or another Social Merit that lets you buy equipment every time you want to use it, whereas Loaded For Bear works X times per scene with no further investment.


        Onyx Path Forum Moderator

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        • #19
          Originally posted by WHW View Post
          A question to people who played with this hack: have you ever ran out of ammo?
          So far only with Low Capacity weapons, and the one refill with Pocket Full of Shells has always been enough to get through a combat. But my players aren't really used to using burst fire, since they almost never carry full-auto weapons.

          Originally posted by WHW View Post
          I'm not a fan of this, because while I understand reasoning behind out of ammo mechanic, it never felt right for me. Mostly because instead of dramatic, it feels fake to me. But I have an issue with "directed" (as in, arranged by a director, like a movie director) dramatism, so it might be because of that. Ammo counting feels much more dramatic to me because it's dramatism is emergent gameplay.
          That's totally reasonable. They are optional alternative rules, and they're not for everyone. Personally, I really like director mechanics, which is why I fell in love with CofD 2e - it's full of them. But I understand why a lot of folks find them unappealing. If the resource management style of ammo tracking works better for you, no reason to switch to a system you don't like as much.


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          • #20
            I think one of my issues with the standard rules and ammo counting... is that it almost never mattered. I played a game for 2 years without a character having to reload during combat once, because combat never lasted enough rounds to worry about it, even for relatively low capacity weapons like a revolver.

            There's no drama there for me. Even if you don't go with the Hurt Locker rules, I think there needs to be something more abstract than just counting individual bullets so there's some drama involved.

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            • #21
              I was automatically assuming that the condition was an alternative. The merit sounds like it should be the maximum someone can carry to me. On the other hand it feels a little bit strange that the merit is kind of prevents you from getting beats for "loosing" your ammunition that way. Hm.
              Maybe I'll use the merit just as an limit for what is possible/normal to carry around. It's also helpful if the characters "collect" ammunition during combat to have a bar what makes sense to collect.
              Based on your experience it sounds like it could work.

              I personally don't prefer one system over the other. The only thing I am always looking for is an inner logic and consistency. But I really like the idea of shooting multiple times. So maybe I would also consider to integrate the "bursts" into the original system, if I would stick with that one. I can imagine that it could be a lot of fun, if the characters cross ways with something really dangerous and they feel the need to do as much damage as possible as quick as possible, ..maybe before running away! XD

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Elythia View Post
                I was automatically assuming that the condition was an alternative.
                No, with the Condition, Loaded For Bear's effect becomes, "A number of times per svene equal to your dots in this Merit, you can use an instant action to restore a weapon that has run out of ammunition to full capacity without expending the Pocket Full of Shells Condition."

                Originally posted by Elythia View Post
                The merit sounds like it should be the maximum someone can carry to me. On the other hand it feels a little bit strange that the merit is kind of prevents you from getting beats for "loosing" your ammunition that way. Hm.
                The idea of the Merit is that you're a person who carries significantly more ammo around with them than is normal. So the whole "when you lose track of how much ammo you've used, you run out" thing is less of a problem for you. You still have to fumble for your next magazine at an inopportune time if you lose track, but you've got so much extra, you can afford to do that multiple times before you completely run out.

                Originally posted by Elythia View Post
                Maybe I'll use the merit just as an limit for what is possible/normal to carry around.
                So basically allowing you to have a number of instances of Pocket Full of Shells tied to the same weapon equal to your dots in the Merit + 1? That could work.

                Originally posted by Elythia View Post
                It's also helpful if the characters "collect" ammunition during combat to have a bar what makes sense to collect.
                That's covered under "possible sources" in the Condition. At ST discretion you can get the Condition by means other than just buying it like equipment. Robbing a sporting goods store, looting it off the corpse of someone with the same type of weapon, making your own bullets with the crafting rules, etc.

                Originally posted by Elythia View Post
                I personally don't prefer one system over the other. The only thing I am always looking for is an inner logic and consistency. But I really like the idea of shooting multiple times. So maybe I would also consider to integrate the "bursts" into the original system, if I would stick with that one. I can imagine that it could be a lot of fun, if the characters cross ways with something really dangerous and they feel the need to do as much damage as possible as quick as possible, ..maybe before running away! XD
                The burst fire rules are fully compatible with the standard ammo counting rules. A short burst uses up 3 bullets, medium uses 10, and long uses 20 You could always just say that manual weapons can do short bursts, semi-auto can do medium or short, and full-auto can do long, medium, or short.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                  So basically allowing you to have a number of instances of Pocket Full of Shells tied to the same weapon equal to your dots in the Merit + 1? That could work.
                  Not exactly. I am more thinking about a limit of ammunition for two reloads for every situation, not three. So if you buy the two dot version of the merit you are already as prepared as you can be. If you don't have the merit or used ammunition during combat you can only refill those two reloads.

                  Edit: Always in addition to the ammunition in your weapon of course.
                  Last edited by Elythia; 02-11-2017, 07:42 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                    So far only with Low Capacity weapons, and the one refill with Pocket Full of Shells has always been enough to get through a combat. But my players aren't really used to using burst fire, since they almost never carry full-auto weapons.


                    That's totally reasonable. They are optional alternative rules, and they're not for everyone. Personally, I really like director mechanics, which is why I fell in love with CofD 2e - it's full of them. But I understand why a lot of folks find them unappealing. If the resource management style of ammo tracking works better for you, no reason to switch to a system you don't like as much.
                    + Heavy Arms Quote

                    I'm thinking about a compromise where standard situations use unlimited dramatic ammo of Hurt Locker, but dramatic scenes where ammo counting is appropriate uses a Condition or...Framing Scene? I'm not the one owning the book, so I don't have the PDF, can't look it up. Basically, a Condition that flat out says "You have [number] bullets left. Spend them wisely."
                    Note that this is less about a singular combat and more about a tense situation like being in a isolated Murder Dimension Warehouse trying to find your way out, knowing that there is something in the darkness stalking you. You see something moving in the darkness; do you pull the trigger? You stumble upon a Not-The-Biggest-Threat Zombie; do you dispose of it with your gun without a risk, or do you try to conserve ammo in exchange of risking being wounded by the monster...knowing that the REAL capital M Monster might take more than one, two, three shots to take out?

                    That, and things like gun duel where both parties try to manuever around the building from cover to cover trying to outsmart the other person, and running out of ammo is preeeeeeeeety real danger, because you need to shot in order to keep pressure on the target and restrict their movement but you also need ammo to have ability to actually dispose of them when an openning happens .

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                    • #25
                      While I appreciate the narrative situations you're talking about, they're also contrived enough that (esp. if we're talking about multiple characters) they are very hard to create and keep fun regardless of ammo counting method.

                      My character has a standard Glock 18 pistol with one in chamber, and three clips... that's 100 bullets. Are you seriously going to have so many encounters that 100 bullets (again one character) with minor zombies that I'm going to feel worried about having enough? That tension isn't going to last. Just one six-round revolver? Sure. But unless you're going to force that choice on a player (which isn't fun) you're going to have to drag it out forever (which isn't fun).

                      The same thing goes with the "cover duel" scenario. Running out of ammo is bad, but it's not hard to come into the situation with enough ammo that it'll never happen before someone finally catches the other.

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                      • #26
                        I think this is something that the group should discuss before the game. There is a trade off between convenience and believability and different players and STs will have different preferences. I'm planning to run an all Meket play as the hidden faction who push the other kindred to war and claim the city for your self campaign and I'm not sure whether to run core or Hurt Locker.

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