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Are the CofD Poison Rules Really This Bat**** Insane?

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  • Are the CofD Poison Rules Really This Bat**** Insane?

    I'm praying that someone out there can prove me wrong here.

    "Poison
    Outside of combat, a character who is the victim of a
    poison or toxin suffers lethal damage over a period of time
    equal to the poison’s Toxicity. Some substances deal this
    damage only once. Others deal this damage once per turn
    or once per hour until purged, or until the poison has run
    its course. To resist the damage, make a reflexive Stamina
    + Resolve – Toxicity roll. Each success reduces the damage
    taken by one. This roll must be made every time the poison
    deals damage, unless the character stops fighting and gives in."

    Also, the only examples given:
    "Characters who overdose on drugs treat the drug like a
    poison, with a Toxicity somewhere between 3 and 7. The
    overdose deals damage once per hour until the drug has run
    its course — if a character’s spent eight hours drinking, then
    the poison takes another eight hours to fade, with a Toxicity
    between 3 (beer or wine) to 5 (rubbing alcohol). A character
    who injects stronger heroin than expected takes damage for
    (eight minus Stamina) hours, with a Toxicity of 7."

    According to these rules, a "normal" person with 2-dot stats and who blows all 4 of their Willpower resisting an 8-hour beer-drinking binge makes 8 rolls of 2 Stam + 2 Resistance - 3 Toxicity with +12 from Will for an Expected Value of 6 to reduce 8 x 3 = 24 damage for an average damage of 18. It's presumably Lethal damage, but even if it's just Bashing... that's still enough to bring that "normal" person to 3 boxes from death. Surviving a hard liquor or heroin overdose is practically impossible. There are also apparently no rules for sympathetic medical treatment. Even a Toxicity 2 poison over 8 intervals will net that average person 7.6 damage - enough to fill all their health boxes.

    Am I missing something here?

  • #2
    Originally posted by bonerstorm View Post
    According to these rules, a "normal" person with 2-dot stats and who blows all 4 of their Willpower resisting an 8-hour beer-drinking binge makes 8 rolls of 2 Stam + 2 Resistance - 3 Toxicity with +12 from Will for an Expected Value of 6 to reduce 8 x 3 = 24 damage for an average damage of 18. It's presumably Lethal damage, but even if it's just Bashing... that's still enough to bring that "normal" person to 3 boxes from death. Surviving a hard liquor or heroin overdose is practically impossible. There are also apparently no rules for sympathetic medical treatment. Even a Toxicity 2 poison over 8 intervals will net that average person 7.6 damage - enough to fill all their health boxes.

    Am I missing something here?
    They do Bashing damage, at least beer does, and you heal 4 Bashing per hour.

    Comment


    • #3
      Also, if the drug, poison, and disease rules are too clunky for you, just use the drugged, poisoned, and sick Tilts.


      Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

      Comment


      • #4
        The key word is *overdose*. If your character drinks himself into toxic, potentially fatal levels of intoxication, there's a decent chance he'll die without medical attention.

        There's a reason hospitals use stomach pumps, rehydrate and attempt to flush out alcohol overdoses - they're deadly.

        The rules aren't describing a couple of beers, nor are they talking about an '8-hour beer drinking binge' if the character doesn't overdose.


        Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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        • #5
          8 hours of heavy drinking (say 6 drinks an hour)... is a stupidly large amount of alcohol to consume. That's 48 drinks. Average people wouldn't even be able to make it that far before ending up in the ER. That is absolutely enough drinking that you better be a tough SOB or have a high tolerance (aka more Stamina and/or certain Merits) if you want to not be dead afterwards. Binge drinking isn't safe...

          We're talking about overdosing here, not having a sipping whiskey at the rate of 1 drink every two hours.

          Comment


          • #6
            It would be around 15 beers (12 oz) for a 130 lbs female or 30 beers for a 200 lbs male over 8 hours. You can look it up on the internet to find out BAC which is lethal at .450 for most people. Since you would have alcohol poisoning at that point, the character should take lethal damage as the rules state because the character is dying. Hospital care would downgrade the damage from lethal to bashing.

            For sane amounts of drinking, you would roll Stamina + Resolve modified by potency to determine if the character can overcome the effects which would probably be the drugged tilt, but you could go with bashing damage if you like.

            So as others have mentioned, I'm guessing you missed the part about what happens when not overdosing and thought overdosing rules covered everything. Same rolls, but no successes means you suffer a tilt except when overdosing where you are mitigating damage with successes, and depending on the book you are referencing you might not have medical care covered.

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            • #7
              Am I the only one who thinks that this isn't nearly lethal enough?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MCN View Post
                Am I the only one who thinks that this isn't nearly lethal enough?
                Nope.

                I struggle to understand the mindset that results in being disappointed that eight hours spent overdosing is a little dangerous.

                Comment


                • #9
                  This specific case aside, toxicity rules are a little clunky and prone to abuse. In Changeling first edition a three dot hedgespun weapon could deal nine lethal damage with every successful hit. A Beast with Basilik's Touch, Lair 1, and Stamina 3 (So, character creation) deals 28 lethal over 4 turns with a touch at Satiety 3. A character creation Venombite with Potent Kith at five dots will kill a mortal in one bite. (Six Lethal from poison, plus at least one lethal from the bite itself)

                  Poison is scary, dangerous stuff to be sure, but I find it weird that in many cases it kills people faster than swords or guns under the current rules. The grave poison tilt for combat is great, and I prefer to use that even out of combat. One lethal per turn is going to kill you very quickly, but it still gives you and your allies time to use an antidote if you have one, or at least pre-emptively avenge your death.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You guys are missing my point. I'm not trying to expound the virtuous safeties of binge drinking beer, but highlighting the increase in lethality from E1 to E2. For a person with "average" stats, poisons have increased in average lethality by 25.62%. For Toxicity 3-5, lethality has increased by 40%. When spending Willpower, lethality for Toxicity 3-5 has increased 96.48%. That's a BIG jump.

                    Tox 1E 2E EV Damage/Interval with "normal" stats
                    1 0.34 0.34
                    2 .98 1.36
                    3 2.1 2.97
                    4 3.6 3.9
                    5 4.5 4.9
                    6 5.4 5.9
                    7 6.3 6.9


                    With Willpower
                    1 .12 .12
                    2 .34 .66
                    3 .72 1.59
                    4 1.37 3
                    5 2.45 4.33
                    6 4.2 5.67
                    7 6.3 7

                    Decrease in effectiveness of Willpower
                    1 0
                    2 0.32
                    3 0.87
                    4 1.63
                    5 1.88
                    6 1.47
                    7 0.7

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Speaking of: The NBC Suit in Hurt Locker gives a +5 bonus vs toxins. This means that it reduces an average 1.67 damage/interval instead of vastly reducing the chance of being affected. In other words, IT DOES VIRTUALLY **** NOTHING against the high-Toxicity threats it is designed to keep you safe from.

                      The effect of the new rules is to nerf the living hell out of anything that gives a bonus to toxins. Please, continue to mock me for pointing out flaws in your sacred texts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So use the 1e rules for poisons and toxins if you prefer them.


                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bonerstorm View Post
                          The effect of the new rules is to nerf the living hell out of anything that gives a bonus to toxins. Please, continue to mock me for pointing out flaws in your sacred texts.
                          I think this is just a fundamental disagreement about what constitutes a flaw, to be honest.

                          I couldn't care less about the degree of difference between 1E and 2E. I imagine many others feel the same.
                          They're different systems.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bonerstorm View Post
                            Please, continue to mock me for pointing out flaws in your sacred texts.
                            If you're going to interpret people disagreeing with your opinion of the rules as mocking, maybe don't start a thread with:

                            Originally posted by bonerstorm View Post
                            I'm praying that someone out there can prove me wrong


                            Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bunyip View Post

                              If you're going to interpret people disagreeing with your opinion of the rules as mocking, maybe don't start a thread with:
                              Touche! I was a little annoyed that the response was a reflexive (mostly condescending) defense of the rules based on my alcohol poisoning example rather than fact-based counterpoints or examples of ST's successfully using the new poison rules + liking them. I often feel there's a dearth of objective rules criticism or welcoming of alternate viewpoints on this forum when I visit. I totally did start things with my brainsplode hyperbole, though.

                              Trying to be a little less douchey:
                              Has anybody here used the new poison rules with minimally augmented players and found them workable? How do y'all usually manage numbers of intervals etc? Considering the high lethality of Toxicity 3 poisons, what kinds do you think are valid? Which real-life poisons translate to which Toxicity levels or intervals?

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