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[Dark Eras] Wolf and Raven - Nine Realms

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  • [Dark Eras] Wolf and Raven - Nine Realms

    One thing I largely missed in Viking Era chapter from Dark Eras was cosmology association of it – we only got 2-3 example realms in text. So here is topic for fixing on that and point to ALL possible Norse Realms to CoD various realms associations!

    There is one condition – we miss Supernal Realms of Mage – it’s because Supernal is much more ‘dream state’ in Awakening in the first place. And second, I make this association to make possible for characters in Viking and Modern Era to travel to those lands – and you cannot travel in bodies to Supernal. For associations of Norse Myths with Mage parts of cosmology, see this great topic on Norse Great Cult in Awakening subforum.

    I will start with realms association for clean read of topic. Details will be described after it. List will be edited by me when we hammer more constant view of things. I’m listening to your arguments for or against particular choices.

    Chronicles of Darkness various realms associations in Norse Mythology:
    1. Midgard: The world of humans. The physical/material/living world.
    2. Asgard: The world of the Aesir. Temenos Realms of myths and legends, where gods are always alive. Connected to some Underworld Domains, like Valhalla.
    3. Vanaheim: The home of the Vanir. The Primodrial Dream, where the old gods dance with humanity's finest.
    4. Jotunheim: The home of the Jotunn. The Deep Shadow, from where giants come to feast on mortals.
    5. Alfheim: The home of the Elves. The Land of Bright Faerie, Everlasting Day, its natives glorious and terrible.
    6. Svartalfheim: The home of the Dwarves and Dark Elves. The Land of Dark Faerie, Everlasting Night, its natives wicked and terrible.
    7. Helheim: The home of the Dead. The Underworld, where Hel herself collects the forsaken and uncalled.
    8. Muspelheim: The home of the Fire Giants. Moment of endless Fire Insatiables come from.
    9. Niflheim: The home of the Cold and Ice. Moment of endless Ice Insatiables come from. As part of Dream spheres, it has Kinship with dead and some connection to Underworld - ending with some population of dead in realm itself, entering to Helheim.
    10. Yggdrasil: The World-Yew. An Emanation connecting all of the above with a thousand Irises - Most of them are in Shadow Realm, so Uratha believe it's in 'Deep Shadow'.
    Basic Norse cosmology overview for those not knowing it.

    A cosmic ash tree, Yggdrasil, lies at the center of the Norse cosmos. Three roots drink the waters of the homeworlds, one in the homeworld of the gods, the Æsir, Asgard, one in the homeworld of the humans, Midgard, and one in the homeworld of the dead, Helheim. Beneath the root in the world of the frost giants is the spring of Mímir, whose waters contain wisdom and understanding.

    The root in the Æsir homeworld taps the sacred wellspring of fate, the Well of Urðr. The tree is tended by the Norns, who live near it. Each day, they water it with pure water and whiten it with clay from the spring to preserve it. The water falls down to the earth as dew.

    Animals continually feed on the tree, threatening it, but its vitality persists evergreen as it heals and nourishes the vibrant aggression of life.On the topmost branch of the tree sits an eagle. The beating of its wings cause the winds in the world of men. At the root of the tree lies a great dragon, Niðhǫggr, gnawing at it continuously, together with other unnamed serpents. The squirrel Ratatoskr carries insults from one to the other. Harts and goats devour the branches and tender shoots.

    More on the Yggdrasil from Blasphemies book for Werewolf gameline – notice that Father Wolf should be Wolf Mother in Norse myths as Mani is male Lunar god associated with Luna in them:

    Originally posted by Blasphemies, p. 98
    The World Tree: This ancient yew is believed to occupy one of the Places-That-Aren’t, the areas of the Shadow that have no earthly reflection. In the oral traditions of the mots, there are tales of Uratha successfully finding their way to the tree. Its branches reach ever skyward, and there is no place where one can stand to see the entirety of the tree. Its mighty bole is still scarred by Father Wolf’s claws — but when standing so near it seems as if one is facing a wall of wood thousands of feed in all directions. The tree’s branches are thicker and larger than any worldly tree’s trunk and are said to lead to hundreds of other mysterious places, ancestor realms and even to other times.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-13-2017, 03:16 AM. Reason: EDIT: Reworked main list after discussion - logically, it's highly depending on Astral and Beasts cosmology


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  • #2
    Mage 2E also described Ygdrassil as an Emanation Realm of the Primal Wild.

    For Jotunheim, I would go for the Deep Shadow domain. Of course, I can picture some of the jotnar actually being Insatiables instead of Hive-Claimed.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
      Mage 2E also described Ygdrassil as an Emanation Realm of the Primal Wild.
      Even Mage 2E points ​Yggdrasil as BOTH Emanation Realm and Deep Shadow domain.

      Originally posted by MtAw, p. 251
      Yggdrasil, Realm of Sacrifice (Spirit): Yggdrasil is a mighty tree whose branches fill the realm so completely that no inhabitant can see a supposed space beyond it — just amber and green light, filtered by distant branches, from a source travelers can never reach. No living Legacy is known to harness Yggdrasil, but voyagers can find Irises in old-growth forests, Verges of the Primal Wild, and great trees in the Shadow. Wood dragons, monstrous squirrels, and other creatures possess a wealth of knowledge, but must be paid in sacrifice to share what they know. The tree itself might even whisper some occult secret, but the seeker must do what Odin did, hanging herself until knowledge enters her soul.
      It's just mean that not only Uratha goes there, but also a lots of Norse mages.


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      • #4
        Wyrd, that passage in Mage doesn't say Yggdrasil is a Deep Shadow realm - it says that Irises to Yggdrasil can be found in the Shadow And since Emanations are physical places, unlike Supernal Worlds/Realms, we can actually include them in our topic.

        So let's see...

        Chronicles of Darkness various realms associations in Norse Mythology:
        1. Yggdrasil, World Tree, connecting all other Realms – Deep Shadow domain, Place-That-Isn’t, with portals to other Realms.
        2. Asgard, the home of the Aesir gods ruled by the god Odin and place of his palace Valhalla – Valhalla is pointed as Underworld Domain, see Wolf and Raven chapter of Dark Eras corebook
        3. Álfheim, the home of Light Elves – Changeling Arcadia realms, one part of Norse Feud, with ‘High Elves’ Lords and Ladies.
        4. Svartálfaheim, the home of the Dwarves and/or Dark Elves – Changeling Arcadia realms, one part of Norse Feud, with ‘Dark Elves’ Lords and Ladies.
        5. Midgard (Earth), the home of humans – Material Plane, ‘normal’ reality of CoD universe.
        6. Jötunheim, the home of the Jötnar (Giants) – Based on Fenris-Ur imprisonment events, maybe Deep Shadow Domain? Or another Moment from Beast gameline?
        7. Vanaheim, the home of the Vanir gods – With Asgard being Underworld Domain, I would mark this as the same.
        8. Niflheim, a world of ice and snow – Moment of Insatiables from Conquering Heroes for Beast gameline?
        9. Muspelheim, a world of fire and lava and home of the Jötunn Surtr ( equated with Satan, many times ) – Inferno of CoD? Moment of Insatiables from Conquering Heroes?
        10. Helheim, the home of the dishonorable dead ruled by the goddess Hel – Underworld Domain, see Wolf and Raven chapter of Dark Eras corebook
        Hmm, I'll just go full cross-over then;
        1. Midgard: The world of humans. The physical/material/living world.
        2. Asgard: The world of the aesir. The Halls of Duat, where cruel gods march towards their Fate and command armies of divinely suffering souls.
        3. Vanaheim: The home of the vanir. The Primodrial Dream, where the old gods dance with humanity's finest.
        4. Jotunheim: The home of the jotunn. The Deep Shadow, from where giants come to feast on mortals.
        5. Alfheim: The home of the elves. The Land of Faerie, its natives glorious and terrible.
        6. Svartalfheim: The home of the black elves. A facility of the World Wheel, whose workers toil to keep the world turning.
        7. Helheim: The home of the dead. The Underworld, where Hel herself collects the forsaken and uncalled.
        8. Muspelheim: The home of the fire giants. Something, rather than somewhere, connected to the Divine Fire.
        9. Niflheim: The home of the mists. Again, not a world, but this time a collection of half-worlds that mages call the Lower Depths.
        10. Yggdrasil: The World-Yew. An Emanation connecting all of the above with a thousand Irises.
        Yes, I did some heavy mental gymnastics to fit them all in.


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        • #5
          I like everyone except Muspelheim - he does not sound as working with Divine Fire in any way

          And as I do not use God Machine at large, I would still use Svartalheim as 'Dark Fearie' for Darklings and a likes. But it's for my own games. Also, did not God Machine operates in Material Realm?

          Also, what book is good source on Duat beside Mummy? I just don't like premise of this gameline.
          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-12-2017, 08:59 AM.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
            I like everyone except Muspelheim - he does not sound as working with Divine Fire in any way
            I got that from how Muspelheim is involved both the creation of the world and its destruction. Construction and destruction, embodied by Azoth and Flux respectively.

            And as I do not use God Machine at large, I would still use Svartalheim as 'Dark Fearie' for Darklings and a likes. But it's for my own games. Also, did not God Machine operates in Material Realm?
            Then maybe the Hedge, where a large number of changelings created a massive, plot-level Hollow to host a freehold in, in which they oppose the Gentry?

            And yes, the God-Machine operates mostly in the material world. Still, I think most people won't recognize an interstitial facility as still being in the material world if it's filled to the brim with the Machine's gears. Nor will they recognize an extraterrestrial base in outer space as something on the "material world."

            Also, what book is good source on Duat beside Mummy? I just don't like premise of this gameline.
            There's no real info on Duat outside of Mummy, though. I just thought "beings that can only be described as gods hailing from a culture who thinks conquest and bloodshed in your people's name are glorious, and yet are ulimately fatalistic in regards to their own fate despite all the power they wield" is a good fit for the Aesir. Or at least, fits them enough to be warped and misrepresented.


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            • #7
              A Moment is a period of history, it's not a world of its own. 'Freezing Hell' was an Ice Age or super blizzard.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by nofather View Post
                A Moment is a period of history, it's not a world of its own. 'Freezing Hell' was an Ice Age or super blizzard.
                As the region of Dream in Beast, it can be both. Primodial Dreams Chambers also starts as places with particular fear history. Who is to said that legends of Niflheim were not started by tales of Ice Age in local population, told from generation to generation?


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  As the region of Dream in Beast, it can be both. Primodial Dreams Chambers also starts as places with particular fear history. Who is to said that legends of Niflheim were not started by tales of Ice Age in local population, told from generation to generation?
                  Part of the point of the Insatiables is that they aren't part of the Primordial Dream, they don't have Lairs or Chambers and just steal those of Beasts and actively harm the Primordial Dream through their feeding.

                  But it's fine to run them however you want in your own game.

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                  • #10
                    Thinking only a bit more, I tweaked 21C Hermit list. I missed Duat ( as it's seems to much connected to Mummy Egyptian cosmology concepts ), World Wheel ( as God Machine is more working in Material World in the first place ) and remaking Niflheim and Muspielheim as powerful Moments, connecting to creation and ending of Norse World. It seems, that most of interpretations of Nine World comes straight from Beast setting.

                    So here is a list;
                    1. Midgard: The world of humans. The physical/material/living world.
                    2. Asgard: The world of the Aesir. Temenos Realms of myths and legends, where gods are always alive. Connected to some Underworld Domains, like Valhalla.
                    3. Vanaheim: The home of the Vanir. The Primodrial Dream, where the old gods dance with humanity's finest.
                    4. Jotunheim: The home of the Jotunn. The Deep Shadow, from where giants come to feast on mortals.
                    5. Alfheim: The home of the Elves. The Land of Bright Faerie, Everlasting Day, its natives glorious and terrible.
                    6. Svartalfheim: The home of the Dwarves and Dark Elves. The Land of Dark Faerie, Everlasting Night, its natives wicked and terrible.
                    7. Helheim: The home of the Dead. The Underworld, where Hel herself collects the forsaken and uncalled.
                    8. Muspelheim: The home of the Fire Giants. Moment of endless Fire Insatiables come from.
                    9. Niflheim: The home of the Cold and Ice. Moment of endless Ice Insatiables come from. As part of Dream spheres, it has Kinship with dead and some connection to Underworld - ending with some population of dead in realm itself, entering to Helheim.
                    10. Yggdrasil: The World-Yew. An Emanation connecting all of the above with a thousand Irises - Most of them are in Shadow Realm, so Uratha believe it's in 'Deep Shadow'.
                    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-12-2017, 04:18 PM.


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                    • #11
                      Makes sense that Beasts would be the most involved, since they consider themselves to be connected with every other supernatural being, even if them being literally descended from the same ancestor is just a metaphor.


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                      • #12
                        Seeing as Ygdrassil links the worlds together, according to old Norse legends, then perhaps its Irises can be found in other places besides the ones outlined in Mage 2E?

                        The Place That Isn't mentioned in Blasphemies could be the biggest and most notable entrance leading to the Realm from the Shadow, but I can also picture Irises which lead to the Underworld, the Hedge, and perhaps even the Astral Realm and within the Gauntlet.

                        The World Tree might be especially significant to the Begotten, seeing as its ability to link the "Nine Realms" can complement their Kinship powers.


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                        • #13
                          Deionscribe, it's basically what I had in mind about Ygdrassil writing latest iteration of Nine Realms list. But thanks for pointing World Tree as possible Begotten holy site, it does have sense also.

                          It seems that Grendel would be very pleased with CoD cosmology of Nine Realms. And his Mother maybe local Dark Mother myth variant.
                          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-13-2017, 07:01 AM.


                          Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                          My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
                          MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events

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                          • #14
                            Another possible idea.

                            What if Niflheim is another Emanation Realm? Specifically the one associated with the Walkers in Mist Legacy?


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Deionscribe View Post
                              What if Niflheim is another Emanation Realm? Specifically the one associated with the Walkers in Mist Legacy?
                              I would not went with next Emanation Realms at all becuase of two things:
                              1. Emanations are tiadly connecting to local culture. Walkers in Mists are closely Celtic Legacy, with all the druids and Merlin connections.
                              2. Emanations mark territory as 'mage area' - I would rather miss it if it's possible, sticking to other gamelines.


                              Conquest of Paradise - Fan Dark Era about Portugal and Spain conquests in XVI century - Mage & Beast ( & Hunter )
                              My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
                              MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events

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