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[Dark Eras] Wolf and Raven - Nine Realms

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  • #16
    As I got Neil Gaiman's Norse Mythology from my partner and slowly reading it, I will return to the topic for few days now. First, let's look on the World Creation...

    Gaiman points to stories telling that on the beginning there were only Niflheim and Muspelheim, with great Ginnungagap - Bottomless Abyss - between them. Niflheim was said to be made of mists and cold, land full of 11 poisons rivers. Mulspelheim is made of fire and lava, guarded by the lone Surtr. Then heat of Mulspelheim melted a bit of edge Niflheim, creating water that filed Ginnungagap and created Yamir and rest made into ice from what humanity was created.

    Taking this in to CoD cosmology and we could see parallels like this:
    • Niflheim as 11 Rivers and Land of Cold sounds a very much like our modern Underworld. From Sundered World Dark Era we know know that in Neolithic Era Underworld was great ocean that only was becoming more and more dry, as to becoming underground realm of dead with only rivers in it. I could see here reverse cosmological order of process told in mortals myths - Underworld in CoD is end result of Niflheim and the great Ocean in Ginnungagap was it's first version. Mortals mixed ending with beginning of process. What's even more interesting here is that it would mean that humanity comes from Underworld, at least for Norse people...
    • As Helheim is said to come from Niflheim, it could be that Helheim is latest, third version of Underworld ( at least for Norse ) and Niflheim becoming only Anima Mundi shadow of it's previous incarnation, sustained in myths and legends of humans. Or that Niflheim is both Anima Mundi realm and older parts of Underworld that rest more civilized, filled with ghosts become Helheim. Portals ( Irisis ) in Astral realms to other realms are still the thing in CoD.
    • Mulspelheim with lone Surtr sounds to me as primal part of Anima Mundi, first realms of heat and fire that humanity and animals was afraid. Then we have nice correlation of Mulspelheim and Niflheim being both Anima Mundi realms.


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    • #17
      Latest iteration of my take on Nine Realms, taking in consideration above ideas:
      1. Midgard: The world of humans. The physical/material/living world.
      2. Asgard: The world of the Aesir. Temenos Realms of myths and legends, where gods are always alive. Connected to some Underworld Domains, like Valhalla.
      3. Vanaheim: The home of the Vanir. The Primordial Dream, where the old gods dance with humanity's finest.
      4. Jotunheim: The home of the Jotunn. The Deep Shadow, from where giants come to feast on mortals.
      5. Alfheim: The home of the Elves. The Land of Bright Faerie, Everlasting Day, its natives glorious and terrible.
      6. Svartalfheim: The home of the Dwarves and Dark Elves. The Land of Dark Faerie, Everlasting Night, its natives wicked and terrible.
      7. Helheim: The home of the Dead. The Underworld, where Hel herself collects the forsaken and uncalled.
      8. Muspelheim: The home of the Fire Giants. Anima Mundi realm endless Fire - some Insatiables come from.
      9. Niflheim: The home of the Cold and Ice. Moment of endless Ice Insatiables come from. As part of Dream realms, it has Kinship with dead and some connection to Underworld - ending with some population of dead in realm itself, entering to Helheim. In previous eras it was proper Underworld, before creation of Helheim.
      10. Yggdrasil: The World-Yew. An Emanation connecting all of the above with a thousand Irises - Most of them are in Shadow Realm, so Uratha believe it's in 'Deep Shadow'.


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      • #18
        Reading more on world creation and Yamir, I would assume that all Beasts think they are it's descendants, especially Ankim. Each Horror is modern giant, at least for Begotten. And as giants are relatives with Odyn...


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        • #19
          More cosmology and crossover idea: If werewolves believe that Angerboda is their Mother of Wolves, beasts thinks that she is also their Dark Mother and all of them have anscestor connected to them. In Begotten myths, when Angerboda was killed by wolves, she become Horror, dark shade in Primordial Dream, and now all her children are only non-physical, living in Dreams only, looking for human bodies to carry them in the world.
          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-23-2017, 03:41 AM.


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          • #20
            Newest God of War ( IV: 'Kratos And Family Norse Adventures' ) is about exploring Norse Myths. It has almost the same cosmology as CoD games, with Nine Realms sharing 'the same physical space, difference frequencies'. And it's has Bifrost as magical portal device to travel along World Tree inter-realm dimension to switch between Realms - the same as it would work in CoD universe, probably. Just it yourself in this clip.

            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 04-29-2018, 12:18 PM.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
              • Niflheim as 11 Rivers and Land of Cold sounds a very much like our modern Underworld. From Sundered World Dark Era we know know that in Neolithic Era Underworld was great ocean that only was becoming more and more dry, as to becoming underground realm of dead with only rivers in it. I could see here reverse cosmological order of process told in mortals myths - Underworld in CoD is end result of Niflheim and the great Ocean in Ginnungagap was it's first version. Mortals mixed ending with beginning of process. What's even more interesting here is that it would mean that humanity comes from Underworld, at least for Norse people...
              • As Helheim is said to come from Niflheim, it could be that Helheim is latest, third version of Underworld ( at least for Norse ) and Niflheim becoming only Anima Mundi shadow of it's previous incarnation, sustained in myths and legends of humans. Or that Niflheim is both Anima Mundi realm and older parts of Underworld that rest more civilized, filled with ghosts become Helheim. Portals ( Irisis ) in Astral realms to other realms are still the thing in CoD.
              Taking in account that in 2E Underworld it's ended with Ocean of Fragments, we can clearly point Helheim as proper Underworld, with much of Niflheim as Anima Mundi it's first version of Underworld and Ginnungagap as Ocean of Fragments on the end of it.


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              • #22
                God of War also nicely shows how even on aesthetic level Alfheim just screams of Changeling's Arcadia...



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                • #23
                  And in God of War we have great video and acting representation of as Yggdrasil, World Tree, Emanation Realm - Realm between the Realms! See yourself:



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                  • #24
                    God of War has also very nice visuals of how Helheim can look like...



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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      Taking in account that in http://theonyxpath.com/down-in-the-dark-geist-the-sin-eaters/"]2E Underworld[/URL] it's ended with Ocean of Fragments, we can clearly point Helheim as proper Underworld, with much of Niflheim as Anima Mundi it's first version of Underworld and Ginnungagap as Ocean of Fragments on the end of it.
                      That... does seem right, either by CifD cosmology or Norse mythology. Helheim is a place within Niflheim, watched over by Hel. Clearly, if we’re equating this with CofD’s underworld, Niflheim should be the underworld and Helheim should be a Dread Dominion (as should Svartalfheim be). Ginungagap isn’t in Niflheim at all, but rather is the space between Niflheim and Muspelheim. Which if you’re going with God of War’s “all realms exist in the same physical space” interpretation, that would make Ginungagap time. I don’t really think there’s a good CofD analogue for Ginungagap, unless you want to significantly reinterpret the CofD cosmology. I could maybe see an argument for Ginungagap being Pangea, but that’s a weak parallel.


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                      • #26
                        I was also pondering on Ginungagap as Mage Abyss, especially as it can be connected with Ocean of Fragments in Underworld AND Ocean of Oroburos in Astral ( and Nine Realms heavily use Astral in my take, it seems ).


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                          Chronicles of Darkness various realms associations in Norse Mythology:
                          1. Midgard: The world of humans. The physical/material/living world.
                          2. Asgard: The world of the Aesir. Temenos Realms of myths and legends, where gods are always alive. Connected to some Underworld Domains, like Valhalla.
                          3. Vanaheim: The home of the Vanir. The Primodrial Dream, where the old gods dance with humanity's finest.
                          4. Jotunheim: The home of the Jotunn. The Deep Shadow, from where giants come to feast on mortals.
                          5. Alfheim: The home of the Elves. The Land of Bright Faerie, Everlasting Day, its natives glorious and terrible.
                          6. Svartalfheim: The home of the Dwarves and Dark Elves. The Land of Dark Faerie, Everlasting Night, its natives wicked and terrible.
                          7. Helheim: The home of the Dead. The Underworld, where Hel herself collects the forsaken and uncalled.
                          8. Muspelheim: The home of the Fire Giants. Moment of endless Fire Insatiables come from.
                          9. Niflheim: The home of the Cold and Ice. Moment of endless Ice Insatiables come from. As part of Dream spheres, it has Kinship with dead and some connection to Underworld - ending with some population of dead in realm itself, entering to Helheim.
                          10. Yggdrasil: The World-Yew. An Emanation connecting all of the above with a thousand Irises - Most of them are in Shadow Realm, so Uratha believe it's in 'Deep Shadow'.
                          I just founded I did not pointed Twilight and Shadow Realm in this Cosmology spread... Jotunheim can become regular Shadow Realm - but then would to easily to get than Norse Myths describe it. And do not have any idea how to point Twillight version to CoD cosmology.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                            I just founded I did not pointed Twilight and Shadow Realm in this Cosmology spread... Jotunheim can become regular Shadow Realm - but then would to easily to get than Norse Myths describe it. And do not have any idea how to point Twillight version to CoD cosmology.
                            I don't remember if I saw it in Dark Eras or just on the forum, but weren't there a mention of Hive-Claimed as Jötnar? If you go with that connection the Shadow becomes the best Jötunheim, as the birth place of the spirits that create Hive-Claimed.
                            I know that the Shadow doesn't really look like Jötunheim, but it might be that the legends of Jötunheim were originally about the Border Marches? As the Border Marches were forgotten the name followed those Pangaeans that became spirits and started to inhabit the Shadow. In fact, you could have it that the reason Hive-Claimed became known as Jötnar was because the first Jötnar were Claimed by ex-Pangaeans who wished to return to a physical form.

                            Twilight has no reason to be considered a realm in Norse cosmology. I know there are several 1e references to Twilight as a realm, but that is simply not the case in 2e.

                            If Asgard is just a Temenos Realm then it would definitely contain a Valhalla of its own. Valhalla is the most iconic feature of Asgard so it couldn't be missing from a Temenos Realm based on Asgard, unless someone literally removed it without that act somehow affecting humanity's collective perception of Asgard. Not saying it's impossible (very little is in CofD) but it would deserve a mention.
                            Last edited by Tessie; 05-19-2018, 08:16 AM.


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                            • #29
                              Is the entire goal "mash 9 Realms into existing CofD structure" or "represent 9 Realms into CofD"? There are slight distinctions between the two goals. Depending on how far ranging you want to make things, the 8 Realm (not including Midgard, as the mortal world) could all be:
                              • Separate co-existant places in the Deep Shadow. Which you end up in depends on the flavor of the Realm. Spirits could easily map to much of the phenomena (Hive-Claimed Jotnar especially, but even Valhalla could be a specific pocket where "honorable" warrior Ghosts are taken to keep them from the Underworld). The Yggdrasil could be a special Locus/Verge that has access to all of the Realms. This works best with Werewolf, due to the heavy Spirit focus.
                              • Separate Temenos Realms. The concepts are already all there, and I don't see anything stopping any of the material from being cast as Goetia (even the Einherjar could be the idea of the warrior fighting forever).
                              • Not-quite-Aedes. The Yggdrasil is a Verge/Emanation Realm that has Irises to the rest, but they all also exist in the same space like Aedes do. Instead of attunement by Path, you need a special key or to enter from the Irises. Obviously Mage specific.
                              • Really large Hollows. This is Changeling specific, but the Yggdrasil could be a common entry point in the Hedge that grants access to these Hollow Realms. Or instead of Hollows, domains of Arcadia is also possible - Valkryrie Privateers/Hobs pick out interesting warriors to save and take to Valhalla, leaving a quickly expiring Fetch to die in their wake.
                              • Different Bands of Twilight. This is the most out-there, since the other Realms generally don't have visibility on the Material, but if you wanted to play up the "overlay" aspect, just flavor different bands of Twilight and expand them beyond Spirit/Ghost/Angel/Goetia bands.


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                              • #30
                                Preparing for my next Norse plots for game, I found this interesting statement about Realms:

                                With the exception of Midgard, these are all primarily invisible worlds, although they can at times become manifested in particular aspects of the visible world. For example, Jotunheim overlaps with the physical wilderness, Hel with the grave (the literal “underworld” beneath the ground), and Asgard with the sky.

                                ( It comes from this website )

                                I'm not sure as much this statement is correct in folklore area - but it could point that 'Eight Realms being all various realms of CoD right next to Midgard' very real. And it clearly can work with (new) God of War-like cosmology of portals to Realms in same location.


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