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Exceptional Successes and Contested Rolls

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Diggs View Post
    I pointed out the failing of the book's description. Rolling to achieve a result first is a roll to prevent another from achieving their goal by another means which is probably the thinking of the writer. However, the wording suggests any competition would be a contest action which is not correct (not wholly). A singing competition would have a series of performances that could all be successful rolls and have all sorts of effects but in the end the highest number of successes dictates the winner of the contest. Benefits of success would apply to the individual performance rolls such that it might matter and be completely unrelated to the contest. The rules conflate the two situations by not making distinctions, but for the actual contest part it is as you say. Grappling is never that complicated so you succeed (win) or fail, then dramatic and exceptional as normal, but success is required for exceptional.
    Such a competition doesn't seem like something that should be resolved with a Contested action. It might be better in this case to be racing to a target number in opposed extended actions, or using a subsystem like a Chase or Social Maneuvering.


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    • #17
      Charlaquin I would love to have a fluid subsystem that covered grappling, ranged combat, gunplay, and melee weaponry. Let me know if you find a system that supports it :P

      Diggs The grapple action's success, by RAW, isn't required for an exceptional success. Same as any exceptional success. Maybe RAI, but it's left vague and unrefined. Yes, it seems an oversight, but pushing an interpretation vehemently doesn't make my own or others less valid.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Necrophear View Post
        I would love to have a fluid subsystem that covered grappling, ranged combat, gunplay, and melee weaponry. Let me know if you find a system that supports it :P
        You mean like the combat system?

        Originally posted by Necrophear View Post
        The grapple action's success, by RAW, isn't required for an exceptional success. Same as any exceptional success. Maybe RAI, but it's left vague and unrefined. Yes, it seems an oversight, but pushing an interpretation vehemently doesn't make my own or others less valid.
        Remember, however, that Chronicles of Darkness books are written in natural language. The precise "RAW" based on a technical reading is not as important as the natural interpretation. And if you can tell that RAI is different than RAW-by-technical-interpretation just by reading it, then RAI should be the preferred interpretation because it is the natural one.
        Last edited by Charlaquin; 03-24-2017, 02:19 AM.


        Onyx Path Forum Moderator

        My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

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        • #19
          You can't have an exceptional success if you don't have a success at all. That's not laid out explicitly in the book because it should be fucking obvious.

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          • #20
            "The winner picks a move from the list below, or two on an exceptional success" is pretty unambiguous. Only the winner gets any actions in a grapple.

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            • #21
              I mean like a single combat system that applies to any form of combat. The storytelling system is one of the better ones, but consider the suggestion* of a subsystem for grappling: it would improve things, but it's a partition. It's difficult to find one system that isn't partitioned by type and/or style.

              ​Your condescension, Elfive, doesn't change that since something is left open we are free to interpret as we see fit.

              Ties are ambiguous in the system. It's a contextual choice by the Storyteller what to do, and I persist in my philosophy that a player should never be penalized when they've done something exceptional, such as rolling five successes on a theoretical five dice (2.02% chance); this despite any action their opponent is taking. They may not get the full effect, but they have to be given something. Mechanically, the same naturally applies to non-mook NPCs.

              *mine, not yours, I realize your own suggestion is about a non-combat competition. I think the grappling rules have been oversimplified, and that some of the issues with it aren't merely the result of vague wording.
              Last edited by Necrophear; 03-24-2017, 08:46 AM.

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              • #22
                When two people fight over a specific goal, they engage in a contested action. You roll your dice pool and the Storyteller (or other player) rolls the dice pool for the other party. Whoever rolls the most successes is the victor. Note that you count the total number of successes rolled when working out if you scored an exceptional success — don’t subtract the other party’s successes from yours. A contested action takes up the action of the person initiating the action; resisting it is a reflexive action.
                -COFD p69-70

                Why does this not appear under "Contested Actions"? Don't ask me. Since what happens to the loser is never mentioned, I don't see how there can be a debate over RAW vs. RAI. Debating over nothing falls in the realm of rules as interpreted and that is the point where I exit, stage left.

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                • #23
                  I'm not mentioning the loser anywhere, Diggs. The concept of what constitutes winning is the debate, whereas my personal philosophy and argument is based on related reward being a requirement for exceptional meta-action if not exceptional game success.

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                  • #24
                    How we treat it in our session is the loser has "failed" the roll. In other words certain merits may make it a success (or Steadfast) but it's considered a failed roll and nothing happens for them since they couldn't succeed over their opponent.

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