[2E] Titanic Ephemerals - How to stat them?

[wyrdhamster]

I want to create truly 'titanic' Ephemeral Entities for my players to confront ( high Arcana mages, so they should take them out ). In this topic, we talk about beings of size of small mountains or at least large forests. To get prospective - see graphics from Inspirational Images for Beast topic ( most probably on this Size range ) . The problem is how to stat beings like those? How much Size typical small mountain would have? I can see this beings having 'only' Ephemeral Attributes on 8 or 9, but still their whole massiveness still makes them hell lot of Corpus Boxes.

I remember there were somewhere alternative Numina or Dread Power that was called 'Gargantual' or something that ease this mechanics, but I cannot recall where...

[Charlaquin]

The Size scale barely makes sense to begin with, and it really starts to break down when you start getting past a few dozen. Sky scrapers are supposed to be Size 100, so if you want Kaiju-sized spirits that's probably a good starting point.

[Acrozatarim]

I want to create truly 'titanic' Ephemeral Entities for my players to confront ( high Arcana mages, so they should take them out ). In this topic, we talk about beings of size of small mountains or at least large forests. To get prospective - see graphics from Inspirational Images for Beast topic ( most probably on this Size range ) . The problem is how to stat beings like those? How much Size typical small mountain would have? I can see this beings having 'only' Ephemeral Attributes on 8 or 9, but still their whole massiveness still makes them hell lot of Corpus Boxes.

I remember there were somewhere alternative Numina or Dread Power that was called 'Gargantual' or something that ease this mechanics, but I cannot recall where...

You may be thinking of the Colossus Dread Power in the idigam rules of Forsaken 2e.

[nofather]

Corpus is just Resistance + Size, so pick a Size and it adds directly to their Corpus.

[wyrdhamster]

Other thing connected to topic - Does mages spells need to adjust somehow to Size? If I make those Titans about Size of 100 would this mean PCs cannot hit them with magic?

You may be thinking of the Colossus Dread Power in the idigam rules of Forsaken 2e.

Yes, that one! Reading it now I have some question on it. Just let's see particular lines:

The idigam increases its Corpus by its Size, and gains general Armor equal to its Resistance.

Does it mean that Ephemeral has it's Sized counted twice for the Corpus. I.E. Corpus = Resistance + 2 * Size then?

This armor is completely ignored by attacks made with the idigam’s bane.

If spell from Arcanum is of Ephemerals basic type ( like attack from Mind for goetia, attack from Death for ghost ) and Aggravated would it then be treated as Bane?

Against creatures and objects of smaller Size than the idigam, its attacks benefit from the 8-Again rule.

If 8-Again rule apply to the general spells on target also? Or only direct damage on target spells?

[Acrozatarim]

Other thing connected to topic - Does mages spells need to adjust somehow to Size? If I make those Titans about Size of 100 would this mean PCs cannot hit them with magic?

I believe that is correct, yes; iirc, Awakened spell factors include Size of target.

Does it mean that Ephemeral has it's Sized counted twice for the Corpus. I.E. Corpus = Resistance + 2 * Size then?

Yes.

If spell from Arcanum is of Ephemerals basic type ( like attack from Mind for goetia, attack from Death for ghost ) and Aggravated would it then be treated as Bane?

No.

If 8-Again rule apply to the general spells on target also? Or only direct damage on target spells?

I don't understand exactly what you're asking. The Colossus entity gets 8-again on its attacks against smaller-Sized creatures and objects.

[wyrdhamster]

I don't understand exactly what you're asking. The Colossus entity gets 8-again on its attacks against smaller-Sized creatures and objects.

I read it wrong first time - I thought that PCs get bonus attacking against Ephemeral. Thanks for clarification.

[WHW]

They would be able to hit them with magic, but it would have to be indirect magic, not a spell that affects them as a singular subject. "Mind Control" no, creating a firestorm that hits them on the nose, yes.

[Vent0]

At those Sizes, it might be better to model areas of the Ephemeral/Creature as separate areas or sections. Like the entire thing might be Size 230, but the Head or Limb is Size 30 (and you deal with it individually).

[Charlaquin]

Erm... I'm pretty sure Corpus is = Resistance + Size, not Resistance + (Size x2) as Wyrd was asking.

[wyrdhamster]

Let's assume we go with Charlaquin idea and equal our Goetia Horror to skyscraper and give it Size 100. That means that to target out 'behemot' character would need to take on Advanced Scale penalty -38 to spellcasting roll to target it all. Even with Rote Mudra Yantra for Skills ( +5 ) and rest other very good Yantras ( +3 ) on maxed Gnosis ( 6 Yantras in all ) it will be only bonus +20, so spell is literally uncastable. If we go 'only' to Size 50 of monster ( so half of skyscraper? ), it will be penalty -14, so spell is possible to cast, even if VERY hard. On maxed Skill for Rote Mudra and Gnosis 6, Arcanum 4 ( average in my players cabal ) we have 5+6+4 = +15 - taking in consideration -14 from Size 50, we go nicely into ending dice pool +1, that players can rise with one Yantra and Willpower in casting turn. So I see that out Size 50 will be exactly what I need to put against my PCs.

They would be able to hit them with magic, but it would have to be indirect magic, not a spell that affects them as a singular subject. "Mind Control" no, creating a firestorm that hits them on the nose, yes.

So no 'I use my Arcanum X Mastery to deal Y Aggravated damage in one spell', yes?

[nofather]

Yes, but Colossus 'increases Corpus by its size.' Since the ephemeral entity already uses Resistance + Size, this adds Size upon that again.

[wyrdhamster]

Erm... I'm pretty sure Corpus is = Resistance + Size, not Resistance + (Size x2) as Wyrd was asking.

On normal Ephemerals, yes. But I weight if use Colossus Dread Power on my monsters. Wording seems to indicate Entity with it get's next Size number of Corpus boxes.

The idigam increases its Corpus by its Size, and gains general Armor equal to its Resistance.

Idigam, as spirits, starts with Corpus = Resistance + Size equal. If they increases this by Size, they get Corpus = Resistance + (Size x2)

And as we are with Colossus - If Ephemeral get's Resistance as Armor, does it need mage PCs need to get over Resistance in Potency to make any damage to it? If I aim my Epmeheral with Resistance 9 does this need players need to commit Potency 10+ to do any harm to being, and best to make Potency 15+ then?

[Charlaquin]

Yes, but Colossus 'increases Corpus by its size.' Since the ephemeral entity already uses Resistance + Size, this adds Size upon that again.

Ahh, sorry, I missed that we were talking about a Dread Power. I thought Wyrd just wanted to make an EE with a really high Size stat.

Re: targeting it with spells - it becomes pretty impractical to directly target things with such high Size very quickly, but this can be made up for by using Area of Effect instead of Size and Number of Targets as your scale factor. That does mean spells like simple Unmaking to poof the colossal target out of existence are pretty much out of the question, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Fighting giant entities requires different tactics, and I think that's appropriate.

[wyrdhamster]

I still wonder if using Colossus DP is good in this scenario - with Size 50, we look over 60 Corpus. With problems on Size penalties alone, adding Potency restriction to get it higher than 10 is going to make things uncastable. Still, most attack spells have Potency as Primary Factor, so we can count on 4-5 automatic damage points. Maybe making them get another -10 penalty to rise this to pass Resistance is not such a bad idea?

Even then, making go over Resistance AND making Corpus over 100 maybe to much. It could make fight drag on indefinitely. 'Oh, we made 3 damage, only 97 to go...'

I think I will just go with massive Size ( i.e. 50 ) and look how it will go. As I want to make circa 3 like this encounters, if I see players go on easy, I just rise stakes by using Colossus DP on second 'Titan'.

Re: targeting it with spells - it becomes pretty impractical to directly target things with such high Size very quickly, but this can be made up for by using Area of Effect instead of Size and Number of Targets as your scale factor.

Area of Effect spells would be still much easier to cast on Entitis like that - literally 'A campus, or a small neighborhood' is only on -10 penalty in Advanced Scale spells. Our Size 50 Titan ( i.e. 'half of skyscraper' ) will be lower than this AoE range. Or at least I suppose it will be like that.

That does mean spells like simple Unmaking to poof the colossal target out of existence are pretty much out of the question, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Fighting giant entities requires different tactics, and I think that's appropriate.

Oh, I very like that spells to poof out of existence are outside of question for players. I do not make Big Boss stats to let it just poof in after 1 turn. 3-4 are enough in Mage fandom, as it is circa 1 hour of real life gameplay.