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Hacking Untrained Penalties

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Diggs View Post

    You're so far out into left field I don't even know if I can take this on. We are talking about the rules for a game. The rules abstractly create a simulation only to provide a gaming environment. It is invalid to take the position that the rules should simulate reality in order to simulate reality. The rules are always about the game, solely and entirely. Anyone that disagrees and wants to take another position... we are at an en passe.

    We aren't talking about the same level of use. The rules never talked about the same level of use. There are a few levels; automatic failure, automatic success, simple untrained and difficult untrained. The default for mental actions is difficult while social and physical is simple. Look at the sample actions provided. It isn't about hacking the pentagon. We are talking about hacking computers, programming or database searches and contrasting that with hitting something or picking a pocket. The first group requires knowledge to succeed without blind luck.

    Long story short, it is an invalid comparison, super specialized to super specialized, as you put it. The only proper comparison is typical roll versus typical roll (because it is a game rather than a pure simulation). We must neglect all the possible rolls that we would consider unnecessary to roll. What we are left with is frequent and infrequent. To me, you want to compare infrequent physical actions to frequent mental actions or infrequent mental actions to frequent physical actions. The problem is they are not the same level of difficulty for me, or the people that wrote the rules. Why on earth would the penalty be the same for different difficulties? If the difficulties are the same at your table, which has yet to be asserted by anyone, I already said the penalty should be adjusted to match the typical action.

    The premise that a hack is needed seems to be flawed. If the penalty is frequently too severe then you change the penalty. That is within the rules and how the set penalty was created. When the developer table is different than your table, make the penalty appropriate. The current rule system does not have an arbitrary penalty. The roll gets adjustments from other rules and should end up where it should be. Actions that are atypically easy get bonuses, difficult get penalties. -3 is for difficult acts which describes most of the sample actions for mental skills. Less difficult acts like the most examples for physical and social skills get a -1. Does that not make sense?
    It seems you aren't quite getting what I'm trying to get at so I'll try to break this down a bit. In your original post you stated that you could perform any of the physical or social skills without any training with a few minutes of instruction. You then went on to say that even with 10 Intelligence you wouldn't be able to do the same with Mental skills, listing the likes of open heart surgery as your example as to why you couldn't do so with a Mental skill. That reasoning is greatly flawed. So much so that I had to point out that if you were trying to use that kind of metric you should compare highly technical uses of a skill (open heart surgery) to a highly technical use of a physical or social skill (high level acrobatics being my example, with which you wouldn't be able to perform any better than open heart surgery given no training). That was the totality of my argument here. That the reasoning you were using to seemingly use as an excuse for Mental skills to have a higher untrained penalty was flawed.


    • #32
      Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
      Yes, and in both cases the -1 to -3 for being untrained have no bearing on the results of an attempt to perform the action in question.
      You think rolling chance-dies bears no correlation on the attempt? Alrighty then...


      • #33
        Originally posted by Malus View Post

        You think rolling chance-dies bears no correlation on the attempt? Alrighty then...
        You might need to go back and re-read my post we're discussing if you think chance dice are involved. If the Storyteller says "you can't attempt this action without a relevant Specialty" then you don't get a chance die unless you have the Specialty. And you can't have the Specialty and have an untrained penalty, because you need at least a dot in the associated Skill to have a Specialty in it.

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