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Demons of Inferno

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  • #16
    "I'll point out that Inferno demons are vice driven, but they're not straight up evil, they're not that straight forward.

    And Empyreans are about virtue, but not good, and in fact it makes it pretty clear that being posssessed by an Empyrean is usually straight up worse then most Infernal possessions, because devils of the Inferno are self interest driven and you can really get much out of someone who've ruined or killed, but a "selfless" Empyrean has no such restraints, which can mean ruining or killing the host in the pursuit of a "greater good".

    So on the surface its black and white morality, but when you look deeper and realize they're both Lower Depths entities, not truely biblical beings (although they may in some cases have inspired such beings), its starts to become clear that they're are shades of grey and even blue orange morality invovled.

    These beings, devils and empyreans, are victims of bad luck, they were born or assimulated in the lower depths, different lower depths, but still empty of some trait which they are driven to hunger for.

    I'm point out that if Demons hunger for vice, it ironically means the Inferno likely lacks pleasure/vice and the Enpyrean heaven lacks in true virtue/suffering, in otherwords no one suffers in heaven so virtue is meaningless and serves no purpose, no one is pushed towards vice, and in the inferno everything is suffering, nothing is enjoyable, so indulging yourself is pointless, which makes vice pointless.


    "Faith*is belief in the right things (including the virtues!)" You don't need Faith in Heaven, your in heaven.

    Hope*is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail. You don't need Hope, because in Heaven there is no reason to ever fear you will suffer, because there is no suffering.

    Charity*is concern for, and active helping of, others. In Heaven no one needs your Charity.

    Fortitude*is never giving up. You don't need Fortitude because there is no suffering to challenge it.

    "Justice*is being fair and equitable with others." In Heaven there is no crime, so what do you need with justice.

    *"Prudence*is care of and moderation with money." What need do you have for money, wgen in Heaven where all your needs are met, therefor Prudence isn't needed either nor do you need to be careful, heaven has no sharp edges, or,at least none that can harm you, those could cause suffering.

    "Temperance*is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed " Temperance is not needed in Heaven because there is no suffering, therefor there are no consquences to over indulgence.

    And the same is true in reverse for vices.

    Lust is pointless if you can't enjoy sex in the Inferno.

    Greed is pointless if there is nothing in the Inferno worth having.

    Envy is pointless if all anyone has is suffering, which in the Inferno you already have in abundence.

    Sloth is pointless when anything other then escaping isn't worth doing anyways.

    Wrath is pointless when anyone you'd be pissed off at is already suffering, its redundant.

    Pride is pointless when there is nothing in the Inferno worth having Pride in.

    Gluttony is pointless when everything tastes like shit and nothing you eat is filling in the Inferno.

    So Empyreans go out in search of the virtue that they can't find in the paradise of Heaven and the Devils go out in search of the vice they can't find in the Inferno.

    So its not as straight up good and evil, instead its about finally being able feed the empty space inside you for the first time ever and that is something the devils and empyreans oddly have in common."

    I just qouted myself.

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    • #17
      On the theory that the Inferno is a realm of pure Virtue...

      ...Inferno pretty much says exactly the opposite. Also Inferno demons literally are sin - Malapraxes are an inherent part of their nature - and that wouldn't be possible if it was a realm without sin. They also can't have Virtues. So...

      Also there's that bit which explicitly states that looking into a gate to the Inferno is maddening because "the other side is a roiling mass of sin and spite" since Hell is "the raw face of sin" (p47, second column, first paragraph... I may have woken up properly since my last post).


      The Yozis are right (and you should suffer and obey for all eternity).

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Zahaqiel View Post
        On the theory that the Inferno is a realm of pure Virtue...

        ...Inferno pretty much says exactly the opposite. Also Inferno demons literally are sin - Malapraxes are an inherent part of their nature - and that wouldn't be possible if it was a realm without sin. They also can't have Virtues. So...

        Also there's that bit which explicitly states that looking into a gate to the Inferno is maddening because "the other side is a roiling mass of sin and spite" since Hell is "the raw face of sin" (p47, second column, first paragraph... I may have woken up properly since my last post).
        Well, one point. I don't think they're saying the Inferno is pure Virtue, merely that it hungers for Vice (the satisfaction of). The two aren't equivalent.


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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        • #19
          So, here's another way of framing that idea.

          The idea of Sin is what it is because it is transgressive to whoever thought it up, in the same sense that Grace is what it is because it is transcendent to the situation in which someone thought it up. If you are a Dominion, living in the Inferno, then what could possibly be sinful for you to consume? You're all Dominions, nothing is sacred to you, there is nothing for you to transgress against. There's no rush of pleasure for doing something "bad" that you find to possibly be a (perhaps comforting) personal flaw. You might gain Essence from the feedback loop of being Dominions in the Inferno, but you aren't going to be able to properly feed. In the same way, if you're a Messenger of the Empyrean, what is there to be virtuous against? You are a Messenger in the Empyrean, so there is nothing with which you can contrast your Virtue. There's no self-satisfaction in upholding your ideals when there's no struggle to do so.

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          • #20
            Biggest questions is how to define Sin in the rules takes on beginning of discussion - for me, Sin is interpreted as character Integrity Breaking Point in ways of his Vice – the bigger penalty to the roll, the ‘greater’ Sin is. It's all about transgression of inner moral compass of character and the 'thrill' of breaking those boundaries.


            MtAw 2E - My Legacies and System Hacks Hubs
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