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[Dark Eras 2] 1001 Nightmares - Islamic Golden Age Thread

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  • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    General thought - With whole idea of 1001 Nightmares being about Discoveries and Inventions - I wonder if protoOrdo Dracul Covenant should not rose in those times? Even localized and small. Descriptions of this Era in book read as perfect fit for group of vampires delving into questions of they role and transcendenty of their state...
    Jaliniyya?? They're certainly not identical to the Ordo Dracul because that would be boring an unoriginal, but they fulfil the very same niche.


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    • As we are at mechanical problems - at Grand Mosque in Bagdad we have:

      'The mosque suppresses supernatural influence on the mind, including the Dominate Discipline and Begotten
      Nightmares (prompting a Clash of Wills),'


      And number of dices in Clash of Wills is not pointed here. What it is?

      Also, on the Traditionalist Ulama from the same part - Should not Qur’an Lawyer have more Persuasion Skill, than Subterfuge? He should not lie to is clients, as I remember Islam dogmas correctly, yes?
      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-18-2020, 04:02 PM.


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      • I am getting it right that Refrain is this era mental Contagion strain, related to Pyramid of Giza and tales from 1001 Nights?
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-19-2020, 08:28 AM.


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        • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          I am getting it right that Refrain is this era mental Contagion strain, related to Pyramid of Giza and tales from 1001 Nights?
          Maybe. It’s left up to the Storyteller to decide if the Refrain and/or its corrupted version is a Contagion strain, but whatever it is, the Rosetta Society is interested in it. As for its origins, there certainly some connection to the ancient pyramids, as well as the Rosetta Stone. While there is nothing stating it textually, I certainly see as reaching far beyond ancient Egypt prior to its corruption. The 1001 Nights are then tied into the Refrain when the Eras begins due to the Astral shenanigans described in Playing the Game.


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          • I like the idea of the uncorrupted Refrain being an aspect of the Begotten that occasionally shows up when certain kinds of Heroes do.
            The Refrain basically lets Beasts teach through tales and legend, giving them some reinforcement that their culture is not without value.


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            • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
              And number of dices in Clash of Wills is not pointed here. What it is?

              Also, on the Traditionalist Ulama from the same part - Should not Qur’an Lawyer have more Persuasion Skill, than Subterfuge? He should not lie to is clients, as I remember Islam dogmas correctly, yes?
              As always, each game line gives its own Clash of Wills pool in its own book. Subterfuge is a Skill that covers a lot more than just lying.


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              • Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post
                As always, each game line gives its own Clash of Wills pool in its own book.
                I'm not saying here about the Clash of Wills mechanics - I write here that if phenomena is general pointed on the place itself - not particular monster - it should be something like 'and a Grand Mosque rolls X dices on Clash of Wills'. There is not dicepool numbers mentioned there in era text.

                Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post
                Subterfuge is a Skill that covers a lot more than just lying.
                But judges should not be about misdirection more - only about social manipulations of arguments. Which clearly falls under preview of Persuasion Skills.


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                • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post


                  But judges should not be about misdirection more - only about social manipulations of arguments. Which clearly falls under preview of Persuasion Skills.
                  1) you assume that vampires are honest people and not hypocrites who manipulate the truth for their own needs

                  2) as a person who lives in a place where religious judgement is still relevant, your ability to manipulate the written words of the text in order to fit them to the situation, be it in order to justify a certain modernization of religion or in order to maintain the conservative views is really important. It is not about lying as much as it is about turning the words of text to your favor in order to justify your claims. You don't need to convince people that your claims are right, you need to justify your claims and verdicts through already established texts which sometimes negate those claims on the surface, and you need a more "creative reading" for them. That's true for courts in general, not just religious ones- and manipulating the meaning of words and facts, not the emotions of people, is more in the lines of Subterfuge IMO.


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                  • Read till vampire section of era - and I'm a bit confused. I'm only passing fan of the Requiem, so could someone descibe to me how really are different those Covenants:

                    Ahl al-Mumit vs Lancea Sanctum
                    al-Amin vs Invictus
                    Fir’awn vs Circle of Crone
                    Jaliniyya vs Ordo Dracul


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                    • Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                      Read till vampire section of era - and I'm a bit confused. I'm only passing fan of the Requiem, so could someone descibe to me how really are different those Covenants:

                      Ahl al-Mumit vs Lancea Sanctum
                      al-Amin vs Invictus
                      Fir’awn vs Circle of Crone
                      Jaliniyya vs Ordo Dracul
                      The Lancea et Sanctum view themselves as "dark angels" chosen by God to punish the wickedness of mankind as a form of giving meaning to their curse, and by doing so finding some salvation. The Ahl al Mumit believe themselves to be cursed by the devil, and as such are tools of God's wrath to punish monsters which have forsaken their humanity. So avenging angel sent by God to punish mortals versus wrathful demon used by God to hunt monsters.

                      The Invictus are the Conspiracy of Silence, the hidden agency which pulls the strings and orchestrates the All Night Society to main stability and power in the hands of the dead, and keep their existence hidden from sight. The Al Amin are storytellers and peacemakers, mediators which maintain the traditions and stories of the past in order to sooth any rivalries between factions of the Kindred and maintain the edit the history of the ages to fit their needs and tell the story they wish to tell. So a mobster feudal conspiracy which wants stability and structure through a system of contracts and oaths versus storytelling mediator and master of propaganda which remove any obstacle in order to reach their utopia.

                      The Circle of the Crone are a covenant of neo pagan vampires which draw inspiration from the past to express their inner divinity in rituals of blood and chaos through a blood sorcery which combines aspects of countless dead religions. The Fir'awn are a loose alliance of polytheistic vampires which maintain the old ways and venerate their fallen gods by drawing power from a magic gained through possession by the spirits. So yeah, nothing much in common other than they both being polytheistic blood sorcerers. A mad blood witch versus priest of the old gods.

                      The Ordo Dracul are a scientific covenant which research the vampiric curse and searches for ways to transcend their state through experimental methods all in hope to spit in the eye of the God which cursed them with those banes. The Jaliniyya are alchemists and healers which research the properties of the Blood through tested scientific methods in order to understand the inner working of impurity and understand God's plan through logic and understanding. Again, not much in common, heretics which spit in the eyes of their Curse versus alchemists which try to understand how their Curse fit the greater design.

                      At least, that's my understanding of the differences.


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                      • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                        The Circle of the Crone are a covenant of neo pagan vampires which draw inspiration from the past to express their inner divinity in rituals of blood and chaos through a blood sorcery which combines aspects of countless dead religions. The Fir'awn are a loose alliance of polytheistic vampires which maintain the old ways and venerate their fallen gods by drawing power from a magic gained through possession by the spirits. So yeah, nothing much in common other than they both being polytheistic blood sorcerers. A mad blood witch versus priest of the old gods.
                        To be frank, the Circle of the Crone is a loose confederacy of pagans with no mandatory commonalities. When the Fir'awn finally joins the Circle they won't have to change a single thing to be integrated because everything about them can and is found in many different Circle covens. It could've been as unceremonious as a European Kindred travelling to the Middle-East and saying "Oh, you guys also have to deal with those. We call them Circle of the Crone."


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                        • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                          To be frank, the Circle of the Crone is a loose confederacy of pagans with no mandatory commonalities. When the Fir'awn finally joins the Circle they won't have to change a single thing to be integrated because everything about them can and is found in many different Circle covens. It could've been as unceremonious as a European Kindred travelling to the Middle-East and saying "Oh, you guys also have to deal with those. We call them Circle of the Crone."
                          I don't know- while the Circle is loose, it is still a covenant. It has some principles of faith which are based around the Crone, even though she could be represented through countless faces and forms. They also seem to have more emphasis in terms of neo paganism- more focus around "expression the goddess" and things like that, which is unique to the Circle. Besides, in 2e most covenants are not global organizations- I won't be surprised to see that the Fir'awn have never "joined" the Circle. Besides, European Kindred have said the same thing about the Ahl al Mummit as "they are just the local variation of the Lance", which, again, they do share similarities, but the core is different IMO.

                          On an unrelated note, is it me or that there is no outright statement that the Al Amin use blood oaths like the Invictus? I mean, I assume they do, but the writeup does not seem to state what is their "covenant benefit".


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                          • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                            Besides, in 2e most covenants are not global organizations- I won't be surprised to see that the Fir'awn have never "joined" the Circle.
                            "In future centuries, the inheritors of this tradition will join what will be known as the Circle of the Crone."

                            Individual Circle of the Crone covens can be so diametrically opposed in both ideology and theology that it's ridiculous. To say that they're a Covenant is as ridiculous as saying that the Fir'awn is a Covenant (which DE2 actually says they aren't; only a loose alliance seeking to protect their own faiths). The Circle, similarly, should only be considered a loose alliance seeking to protect their faiths from the Sanctified and others.


                            Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                            Besides, European Kindred have said the same thing about the Ahl al Mummit as "they are just the local variation of the Lance", which, again, they do share similarities, but the core is different IMO.
                            Which has always been pure bullshit. The Lancea et Sanctum is an organised church with a common religious scripture and was formed with guidance from its early unified leadership. The Iblic and Dammitic Creeds (as described in their 1e Covenant book) could not exist within the Lancea et Sanctum as irreconcilable schisms has been born out of far lesser theological differences, and the Divinity of Christ is central to the Longinian faith. Ahl al-Mummit is rightfully its own church in DE2.


                            Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                            On an unrelated note, is it me or that there is no outright statement that the Al Amin use blood oaths like the Invictus? I mean, I assume they do, but the writeup does not seem to state what is their "covenant benefit".
                            I can't find it either. Seems like an oversight.


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                            • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                              "In future centuries, the inheritors of this tradition will join what will be known as the Circle of the Crone."
                              missed that

                              Individual Circle of the Crone covens can be so diametrically opposed in both ideology and theology that it's ridiculous. To say that they're a Covenant is as ridiculous as saying that the Fir'awn is a Covenant (which DE2 actually says they aren't; only a loose alliance seeking to protect their own faiths). The Circle, similarly, should only be considered a loose alliance seeking to protect their faiths from the Sanctified and others.
                              Only that the Circle of the Crone is stated to be a covenant in the books, and the Fir'awn is stated to not be a true covenant. I can only work with what I have, and if the books call the the Circle a covenant and the Fir'awn not a covenant I can only understand that the Circle is more unified than the Fir'awn, at least in terms of religions and agenda.


                              Which has always been pure bullshit. The Lancea et Sanctum is an organised church with a common religious scripture and was formed with guidance from its early unified leadership. The Iblic and Dammitic Creeds (as described in their 1e Covenant book) could not exist within the Lancea et Sanctum as irreconcilable schisms has been born out of far lesser theological differences, and the Divinity of Christ is central to the Longinian faith. Ahl al-Mummit is rightfully its own church in DE2.
                              I totally agree- I'm just saying that the using what European Kindred would say upon the Kindred of other cultures is far from a reliable source. Even the Ahl al Mummit's writeup states how they are pissed off from European vampires saying it to their faces. So again, we shouldn't use that as an example for anything.


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                              • Originally posted by LostLight View Post
                                Only that the Circle of the Crone is stated to be a covenant in the books, and the Fir'awn is stated to not be a true covenant. I can only work with what I have, and if the books call the the Circle a covenant and the Fir'awn not a covenant I can only understand that the Circle is more unified than the Fir'awn, at least in terms of religions and agenda.
                                Until you read their Covenant book. The Circle is by far the least unified of the five main Covenants to the point where they don't even have any unifying beliefs or practices. It's the "Covenant" for anyone who is pagan, neopagan, or just likes the pagan aesthetic. (No, seriously. The Carnon is a Bloodline that basically embodies the latter.) And not even that, if you're just enough of a hardcore primitivist to run around naked in the woods.
                                There are some practices and beliefs that are more or less common, but that's kinda everything that can be said.

                                If second edition want to retcon that, please do. But I haven't read anything to that effect, and this excerpt from 2e core does not indicate otherwise:
                                "The Circle is more a convenient banner under which many disparate groups with disparate practices and beliefs can rally in the face of opposition from the more monolithic covenants. Under different circumstances they might be enemies, but these groups recognize their common ground in the face of common opposition. Individually these groups would have been destroyed centuries ago. As the Circle of the Crone, they’ll probably still face destruction — but they’ll take their enemies screaming with them."


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