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[Dark Eras 2] One Thousand and One Nights - Islamic Golden Age Thread

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  • #31
    I wish I hadn't said the moon God thing, it just something I heard in passing, I'm far from a expert in Islam, I apologize if anyone was offended, I promise that was not my intent.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
      I wish I hadn't said the moon God thing, it just something I heard in passing, I'm far from a expert in Islam, I apologize if anyone was offended, I promise that was not my intent.
      From my part, there's no offense taken. It's a notion that does pop up from time to time and there's nothing wrong with mentioning it. I'm just puzzled by the idea of tinkering with delicate realities of real world in order to force them into the CoD setting when there's just no need, while also often butchering them in the process. But that's something that has nothing to do with what you said. A complicated topic that reappers frequently on the forum for which you don't have to feel sorry about.

      We're cool, you're cool, and animated discussions can be cool. Apologies if my tone made you feel otherwise.


      Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub
      Currently writing: "Dark Era: The Forest That Weeps". When not busy writing homebrew, I also try to write CoD fiction. (All paused until August)

      Waiting feverishly as instructed

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
        I wish I hadn't said the moon God thing, it just something I heard in passing, I'm far from a expert in Islam, I apologize if anyone was offended, I promise that was not my intent.
        I've got no issue with you on this one. As you said, it was something you heard in passing, you talked about it before I explained why it was problematic, and have accepted that explaination. No harm, no foul. People repeat stuff like that all the time without realizing or meaning any harm by it, so I try to educate as best as I can, because as I said I love talking Islamic history. I only get irate when people insist something isn't problematic after I've explained why it is.

        Anyhow... it may all be a moot point, because I want to use my expansion to create a unique combination if possible, and we are already getting Vampire/Demon with the French Revolution.


        CofD booklists:
        Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire

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        • #34
          I'm hoping some more interesting stretch goals will get more backers.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by nofather View Post
            I'm hoping some more interesting stretch goals will get more backers.
            Agreed. Hopefully once we start hitting stretch goals the momentum will build.


            CofD booklists:
            Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Cinder View Post
              Want any gameline to work within an Islamic framework? Find an aspect of the Islamic culture or folklore and use it. "All exists because of Allah and there's no way we can, or should, know the entirety of God's work" is pretty much the sort of answer you can always use in an Islamic Golden Age and one that runs well even with real world Muslim faith.
              Honestly, this is the one Islamic era where that answer DOESN'T fly. Because what drove the "age of Islamic science" was the idea that you COULD know the entirety of God's work, and that to endeavour to know it was almost a form of worship. There was the idea that God worked in certain patterns, what we today know as scientific laws and theories, and to study these was to get a little closer to "knowing" God. Between 750 and, say, 1050, arguing that one shouldn't work to know the entirety of God's work was a highly debated point, and at one time, during the Mihna or Inquisition, would have been even dangerous and could have led you to investigation by the state.

              Generally speaking, I think it's a good idea, but in this period Islamic monsters would have been asking themselves very searching questions as to the nature of God and their place in the universe, because these were the questions that formed the intellectual milieu at the time. It wouldn't do to ignore this in the write-up and just write that they don't concern themselves with those issues.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post

                Honestly, this is the one Islamic era where that answer DOESN'T fly. Because what drove the "age of Islamic science" was the idea that you COULD know the entirety of God's work, and that to endeavour to know it was almost a form of worship. There was the idea that God worked in certain patterns, what we today know as scientific laws and theories, and to study these was to get a little closer to "knowing" God. Between 750 and, say, 1050, arguing that one shouldn't work to know the entirety of God's work was a highly debated point, and at one time, during the Mihna or Inquisition, would have been even dangerous and could have led you to investigation by the state.

                Generally speaking, I think it's a good idea, but in this period Islamic monsters would have been asking themselves very searching questions as to the nature of God and their place in the universe, because these were the questions that formed the intellectual milieu at the time. It wouldn't do to ignore this in the write-up and just write that they don't concern themselves with those issues.
                I agree, to a point. One of the reasons I like the Era so much is exactly because of the scientific and academical impulse to know more about the world while also keeping faith in high regard, so I'm absolutely on board with monsters trying to know more about the nature of the universe and themselves (I'm on board with that idea for every Era, but you get my point). I'm not advocating for an Era that plays with blind faith, the elements of science as a way to understand God and improve should totally be there.

                I'm just saying that, were everything else fails or when there's no immediate need to have an answer, the "Allah did it" is a placeholder that works. Which does not exclude other questions or the fact one can still try to explore and understand God's will. The Islamic Golden Age highlights some of the brightest moments of the human race when it comes to combine religion and science and make them coexist: if that's not there, then it's not right
                Last edited by Cinder; 07-16-2017, 07:03 AM.


                Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub
                Currently writing: "Dark Era: The Forest That Weeps". When not busy writing homebrew, I also try to write CoD fiction. (All paused until August)

                Waiting feverishly as instructed

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                • #38
                  Perhaps Promeathan would be a good choice for expansion then.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post
                    Perhaps Promeathan would be a good choice for expansion then.
                    That's another one I've been toying with. A lot of Islamic Scientists worked with alchemy and humoural medicine, and Ibn Sina in particular synthesized it with Indian and Chinese medicine.


                    CofD booklists:
                    Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire

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                    • #40
                      I don't know that there is anything to truly offer Promethean except to flesh out Alchemists but that would be an odd choice unless they plan to sell chapters separately. Alchemists should be covered in a dedicated Promethean book. There might not be enough to expand on Promethean in a smart way.

                      I think Deviant would hit the same points and be more fitting. With all the various factions fighting in and around the same areas, Demon would also make sense, but I don't know, there might be less to offer Demon than Promethean.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Diggs View Post
                        I don't know that there is anything to truly offer Promethean except to flesh out Alchemists but that would be an odd choice unless they plan to sell chapters separately. Alchemists should be covered in a dedicated Promethean book. There might not be enough to expand on Promethean in a smart way.
                        I mean...the Amirani Lineage did get their first official write up in a Dark Eras chapter. And we even got the official template for playable 2E Pure for Werewolf in a different chapter. Both from the DEC, which means that hasn't even gotten to the stage of having its chapters sold individually.

                        So...eh. OPP does what they want on what goes in a Dark Era.

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                        • #42
                          Returning to Vampire in this Era, I'm interested in seeing full write-up for Islamic Covenant Al-Hamasoun ( being basically ‘Iblis Covenant’) from Dark Eras Companion chapter Soulless and Dead - and their relations to Iblic Creed from Lancea Sanctum book ( Muslim-like LS vampires ). 😊
                          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 07-17-2017, 08:08 AM.


                          My Hubs - MtAw 2E Legacies and System Hacks & WtF 2E Lodges and System Hacks
                          MtAw 2E - History of Awakened - (almost) canonical game timeline of events
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                          • #43
                            Ugh, I could do without a return to the Iblic Creed, it was so poorly done. I've written on it before, but basically the Iblic Creed would require Muslim vampires to stop being Muslim and accept Christian truths to become L&S, in a way that Christian vampires don't. A Christian vampire can accept that this guy was cursed by the blood of Christ and was given unique revelation to explain his curse, but for a Muslim to do the same, they'd have to a) reject the Qur'anic passage that says that Christ was lifted bodily from the cross, and so would not have any blood to curse with, b) apply excessive importance to Christ, admittedly not a huge deal given he's already the third most important prophet, but still, and most importantly c), deny that Muhammad was the seal of the prophets, whose prophecy abrogated all previous prophecy, and who is the last of the prophets. The last one is a BIG DEAL, that's a HUGE jump of faith to do. I'll write more on your V:tR thread.

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                            • #44
                              I think there's an interesting disconnect between the title and subtitle of the Era, which may be the source of some of the contention surrounding it. A Thousand and One Nights, for most of us, is going to conjure up images of fairy tale marvels such as Sinbad riding on the talons of the Roc, Aladdin's ring and lamp, flying mechanical horses, and the like: perfect material for Changeling, which could show us how those sorts of things are all too horribly true in the WoD. (Imagine the glory of a Goblin Market in Córdoba, or the hunt for certain caves in the Hedge which only open on command, or strange cities of brass ruled by the True Fae!) Dreams, stories inside of stories, and the people who defend themselves from inhuman terrors through them. This was the view of the Era I was hoping for ever since it was suggested back in the post-DE1 brainstorming, and I'd still knife-fight a hob to get it.

                              But then the subtitle is the Islamic Golden Age, which instead suggests a focus on the scientific advancement of the age and a closer hewing to reality than you might expect from the Nights. If the Era is going to focus on the scientists and social progress of the era, lines like Demon or Mage become more obvious fits, and Changeling seems a little more awkward: possibly drawing the spotlight off of the realities of the Era, making it harder to ground the Golden Age in the historical reality.

                              It might become easier for the big-ticket backers to decide if and how to add to the Era once we know what emphasis the developers intend to place on the Era. Vampire suggests a look at the politics of the Era and the bloodlines of the Prophet, and how the Damned view themselves within an Islamic framework; I'm not familiar enough with Beast to guess where the emphasis will be with that line, but possibly as the 1001 Nights, emphasizing the Lessons taught through stories and the Primordial Dream aspect.

                              Actually, that's a question I'll pose to the thread: how might Beast fit the Era in ways that Changeling wouldn't? Getting a solid answer on that might ease my worry over the likelihood that we won't get Changeling for the Era.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Raz_Fox View Post
                                I think there's an interesting disconnect between the title and subtitle of the Era, which may be the source of some of the contention surrounding it. A Thousand and One Nights, for most of us, is going to conjure up images of fairy tale marvels such as Sinbad riding on the talons of the Roc, Aladdin's ring and lamp, flying mechanical horses, and the like: perfect material for Changeling, which could show us how those sorts of things are all too horribly true in the WoD. (Imagine the glory of a Goblin Market in Córdoba, or the hunt for certain caves in the Hedge which only open on command, or strange cities of brass ruled by the True Fae!) Dreams, stories inside of stories, and the people who defend themselves from inhuman terrors through them. This was the view of the Era I was hoping for ever since it was suggested back in the post-DE1 brainstorming, and I'd still knife-fight a hob to get it.

                                But then the subtitle is the Islamic Golden Age, which instead suggests a focus on the scientific advancement of the age and a closer hewing to reality than you might expect from the Nights. If the Era is going to focus on the scientists and social progress of the era, lines like Demon or Mage become more obvious fits, and Changeling seems a little more awkward: possibly drawing the spotlight off of the realities of the Era, making it harder to ground the Golden Age in the historical reality.

                                It might become easier for the big-ticket backers to decide if and how to add to the Era once we know what emphasis the developers intend to place on the Era. Vampire suggests a look at the politics of the Era and the bloodlines of the Prophet, and how the Damned view themselves within an Islamic framework; I'm not familiar enough with Beast to guess where the emphasis will be with that line, but possibly as the 1001 Nights, emphasizing the Lessons taught through stories and the Primordial Dream aspect.

                                Actually, that's a question I'll pose to the thread: how might Beast fit the Era in ways that Changeling wouldn't? Getting a solid answer on that might ease my worry over the likelihood that we won't get Changeling for the Era.
                                Well, for your first comment on the forums, that's a might fine post you've got there.

                                I don't know if I have answers for you on why Beast is a better fit... but Beast does has flexibility in the creatures it can create that is only matched by one other gameline: Changeling. All of the things that you mentioned in your first post that Changeling would do so well are also things that Beast can do extremely well. The advantage of using Beast might be that Beast is rooted in nightmares, uncertainty, and fear which could be more grounded, but I'm not sure. I'm really hoping that Meghan Fitzgerald or one of the other Devs fills us in a bit more on the vision for this Era, because of the six of them, this one that the greatest abundance of possibilities.


                                CofD booklists:
                                Beast I Changeling | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire

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