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[Dark Eras fan] Byzantine Empire

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  • #16
    For what it's worth (ie: nothing ), in my personal timeline, the Council of Eagles and Lightning would be long since broken up by the time of the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Uratha would have their own structures, founded upon a history of the Urdeshga Protectorate model, but profoundly different.

    YMMV.


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    • #17
      Based on Forsaken by Rome and After the Fall (only a thousand and a half years in between), my guess is that it's like the Urdeshga Protectorate, but with the Paeon instead of Marisi. A possibly unprecedented partnership at the time and place that probably wouldn't include the Predator Kings. Not immediately anyway. So perhaps still the Urdeshga Protectorate in name, but with different core philosophies, courtesy of the locals.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
        (...) my guess is that it's like the Urdeshga Protectorate, but with the Paeon instead of Marisi.
        Wait, Paeon is god, Marisi are Roman dynasty with large swatch in Roman Republic and Empire. How Paeon would work in Urdeshga-like model?


        Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
        A possibly unprecedented partnership at the time and place that probably wouldn't include the Predator Kings.
        Why? Byznatine Empire is famous to empoly barbarians in it's armies to make those soldiers proper citizens.

        Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
        Not immediately anyway. So perhaps still the Urdeshga Protectorate in name, but with different core philosophies, courtesy of the locals.
        What would be difference from Urdeshga in Forsaken By Rome, then, in your point of view? Like could you point them in list?
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-27-2017, 04:28 AM.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          Why? Byznatine Empire is famous to empoly barbarians in it's armies to make those soldiers proper citizens.

          What would be difference from Urdeshga in Forsaken By Rome, then, in your point of view? Like could you point them in list?
          I think what's getting at is that the Byzantine werewolf structure totally threw off the Pure-Urathra alliance that existed in Forsaken By Rome, as that DE itself notes the model broke down and failed even before Rome fell in the early (and mid!) 5th century. What Spencer from The Hills is getting at as a replacement (if I may be so bold), is a more direct protectorate model that attempted to manage the interest of the involved packs and buy-off/incorporate new and adjoining groups.

          In other words, Byzantine barbarian management at its finest.

          Further, let's be careful not to assign tribes broadly to people groups. This is NOT the approach supported by Onyx Path and actually flies in the face of history. Yesterday's barbarian is today's cultured and useful people-group, opposing today's barbarians who will tomorrow be settled someplace handy; that's the way the Migration Period rolled--all the way up to the Mongols.

          As an example of why you cannot lump people together as "barbarians" and get the same result: the Bulgar's were noted in the 6th century to be a tribal confederation that built with stone blocks and farmed as well as rode. The Avars were another confederation of tribes: both former vassals of the Huns (like the Bulgars), plus substantial Slav tribal groups. As soon as the Avars found their "niche" in Pannonia they settled--the "Avars" themselves as the nobility and other tribes (especially the Slavs) as the farmers and herders. Then, when they were defeated and broken by Charlemagne and the Bulgars in the very late 8th century, the "Avars" vanished into the other peoples more-or-less overnight.

          Why were the Slavs the under-class of the Avars (and Bulgars)? Because they lacked the refined building, siege and metalworking understanding that the Hunnic tribes had. Teh Byzantines were able to bring Slav tribes into their territory and settle them because they were no threat to fortified cities. The Avars, Bulgars and the like (later peoples) came with both extensive horse and archery capabilities and an understanding of how to tear down cities. So, the Byzantines had to conclude treaties with them that amounted to ceding land.

          So who gets to be the tribe that represents the Predator Kings? The Slavs? Which Slavs? No... better not to go there. You'll find both Pure and Urathra scattered throughout all groups, and yes they'll want territory that is richer in loci and away from more dangerous people groups for the sake of themselves and their kinsfolk.

          A last note regarding the historical bits: the Roman Empire had already surrendered to the Huns, agreeing to pay them in perpetuity with large sums of gold, annually. This debt was to be born by whomever represented the Empire--which after the 5th century meant Constantinople. The entire history of the Byzantines and their northern barbarians is a long-running play on who (which tribe) gets to claim a portion (and how much) of that Hunnic ransom, and the extent to which the Emperor was willing to cough up his obligations.

          --Khanwulf

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          • #20
            Oh I was referring to the Greek Fire Touched. I was just thinking of Constantinople itself and hadn't even considered the Avars, Bulgars, Slavs etc.
            Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 11-27-2017, 03:59 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
              Oh I was referring to the Greek Fire Touched. I was just thinking of Constantinople itself and hadn't even considered the Avars, Bulgars, Slavs etc.

              Oh indeed. Byzantine internal politics between the various factions are dizzying. You can look a the emperors alone and get lost in all the intrigue. At the supernatural level either you decide that there is no comprehensive organization even attempted, or you imagine how it gets broken up into territories. For the Forsaken that "broken up" part is a bit more feasible, since packs and pack allegiances do not have to map onto human politics at all.

              Even so, the Roman empires (east AND west) are famous for picking up people groups and plopping them down in nominally uninhabited areas--fallow regions untended by packs, I can imagine.

              For vampires, things get harder, as the humans are the food source and you kinda need to flow with them.

              --Khanwulf

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              • #22
                Originally posted by nikink View Post
                For what it's worth (ie: nothing ), in my personal timeline, the Council of Eagles and Lightning would be long since broken up by the time of the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Uratha would have their own structures, founded upon a history of the Urdeshga Protectorate model, but profoundly different.

                YMMV.
                When did you have the protectorate breaking up?


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                • #23
                  Some new info from my historical magazine on Byzantine Empire scientific accomplishments...
                  • Empire was one of largest concentration of scientific thought in the Europe in it's time. Even when Justinian I closed in 529 A.D. Platon's Academy because of their views not corresponding with Christian orthodoxy - Byzantium still had university in Constantinople, philosophy academy in Alexandria, law school in Bejrut, and two medical schools in Athens and Pergamon. Contrasted to Western Europe under Germanic tribes invasion at that time - Byzantium was jewel of learning. Still, teaching in East Roman Empire was subject to the state - to become lecturer you needed government recognition and could be penalized by ruler. If you by 20 years did not do something radical, you got title of senior lecturer and large pay rise - so most scientists where more following conformists routes and only choosing safe subjects - to not offend Crown or Church - like simply expending theories of 'pagan' philosophers of ancient world, not seeking truly new knowledge.
                  • Byzantines were great collector and archivists of Greeks knowledge. They were having one of largest armies of copiests monks that sustained works of Euclides, Aristoteles, Tales or Pitagoras, to point a few.
                  • East Roman Empire chemists rediscovered and perfected so called 'Greek Fire' - i.e. precursor of our modern flamethrower. Substance was sticking to ships hull and making Byzantine fleet almost unstoppable on sea battles.
                  • In 5th and 6th century, Byzantine traders and missionaries come to places such as Ethiopia, Sudan or India. They even went as far as China, buy silk from the Silk Road - and imbue with Europeans favorites colors, selling silk in new colors to the courts of West countries and kings. Finally, Byzantine got silk spiders eggs in 6th century - and from there on they started to produce their own silk. There was even special secret service to watch out so the secret of Byzantine silk do not get out of in public - called kommerikiarios - and I smell some good story seeds for Azlu Spider Host or Guardians of Veil in here.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Second Chances View Post

                    When did you have the protectorate breaking up?
                    I can't recall off-hand the exact turn of events I had in mind at the time of writing. That said, the rise of Augustus (and Imperial Rome) was the tipping point, and so around the time of his death, or soon after. The council survives, of course (into the present day, ultimately, though the form and rituals change over time fairly significantly) as the Council of Eagles. The Marisi are out-manouvered politically and ejected from the council, whereupon they form the Lodge of Lightning (which might have formed unofficially prior to the council's split, and again, survives to the modern day, changed in many aspects but still populated by Iron Masters).


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by nikink View Post

                      I can't recall off-hand the exact turn of events I had in mind at the time of writing. That said, the rise of Augustus (and Imperial Rome) was the tipping point, and so around the time of his death, or soon after. The council survives, of course (into the present day, ultimately, though the form and rituals change over time fairly significantly) as the Council of Eagles. The Marisi are out-manouvered politically and ejected from the council, whereupon they form the Lodge of Lightning (which might have formed unofficially prior to the council's split, and again, survives to the modern day, changed in many aspects but still populated by Iron Masters).
                      So that means Forsaken by Rome is pretty much the Protectorate's last hurrah, right?


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                      • #26
                        I think that was sort of the point, what with the Aquila being lost and that sort of being a lynchpin of the spiritual side of the protectorate. Plus as a reaction werewolves from all over the world converged on the area, which led to a lot of lost territory. I think it tops the list of the most scary and memorable things to happen in the Chronicles setting. Love the era.

                        Though if you have that sort of game it's probably easy to extrapolate how things could go the other way, with the legions stomping the barbarians to dust and then going on like it has been.

                        The Gulikan bloodline originated during the Byzantine Empire, them being based off of the story Perfume: the Story of a Murderer.

                        And according to the Ventrue clanbook, the Bishop of Byzantium had access to texts secreted away from Rome and other places after the Camarilla fell. The Bishop and Sanctified clerics spent decades 'on rewriting Kindred history and exorcising enemies, mistakes, shame and sin from the "truth" they would put forth to future scholars.'
                        Last edited by nofather; 12-05-2017, 11:26 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Second Chances View Post
                          So that means Forsaken by Rome is pretty much the Protectorate's last hurrah, right?
                          Nah, not the Protectorate's last hurrah - the Urdeshga's last hurrah. The Romulan protectorate lasts as long as them Empire does (in one form or another). The Marisi lose power, status, and wealth, while the Saturi exult in their victory with their new friends the Poenii. But the Fire-Touched never get regarded as highly as the Iron Masters were in the days of the Urdeshga - the Saturi, having gained all the power, are loath to start sharing it with anyone ever again. Of course, the Poeni don't necessarily want to become 'the Marisi' anyway, they get their wn power from influencing the Ivory Claws and from delving into the hisil to play with spirits. A more "advisory" role which lets the Saturi take the fall.


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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by nikink View Post

                            Nah, not the Protectorate's last hurrah - the Urdeshga's last hurrah. The Romulan protectorate lasts as long as them Empire does (in one form or another). The Marisi lose power, status, and wealth, while the Saturi exult in their victory with their new friends the Poenii. But the Fire-Touched never get regarded as highly as the Iron Masters were in the days of the Urdeshga - the Saturi, having gained all the power, are loath to start sharing it with anyone ever again. Of course, the Poeni don't necessarily want to become 'the Marisi' anyway, they get their wn power from influencing the Ivory Claws and from delving into the hisil to play with spirits. A more "advisory" role which lets the Saturi take the fall.

                            Plus, the idigam "Spirit of Rome" continues afterwards, sitting at the center of an increasingly chaotic and debauched society that, in parallel, more and more fails to hold things together: security fails, trade fails, currency fails, and ultimately the entire system is unable to support the central control Rome lusted for.

                            After Constantine--an "invading Emperor" and one of many before and after--the administrative split East/West could be taken as acknowledgement within part of the werewolf community that something was seriously rotten and not solvable. The fact that the West became a carcass picked over for the next century while the East pretty much kept things together only illustrates this point.

                            ​Do love the DE, nikink

                            --Khanwulf

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                            • #29
                              Okay, but HOW will Byzantine Forsaken work? Idea of Council of Eagles and Thunder is long past in Eastern Roman Empire - so what IS in this Protectorate?


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                              • #30
                                Ok, had a bit of time to brainstorm this, so here's how it would go if this was my game.

                                In the late 3rd Century AD the Romulan Protectorate is stretched thin across the world, and the Magna Mater, huge, bloated and self cannibalizing, is raving mad. The Protectorate separates with the Roman Empire. This has the fortunate side-effect of quelling the Magna Mater's agony for a brief respite in the local hisil. The Eastern Protectorate is led by a more equitable arrangement of Fire-Touched and Ivory Claws, with the Poenii claiming authority over all matters spiritual, and the Claws over mortal affairs - much like in the Romulan Protectorate, but with more power and recognition granted to the Fire Touched.

                                This new Protectorate is called the Themisine Protectorate. The Fire-Touched, with authority from the gods, and their Ur-Father, and Father Wolf himself, and touched with divine fevers and insight, guide the more mortal policies enacted by the Ivory Claws. Together they act in (supposed) balance. They have no Magna Mater to appease, or contend with - packs of Uratha squabble over territory until the Protectorate is threatened by packs of 'barbarian' Forsaken. The Themisines bargain heavily with the local Predator Kings, whom they dubbed 'Naturae', in order to combat the rising Forsaken threat, and the constant threat of rogue spirits bolstered by beliefs from dozens of nations and all seeing an opportunity to become the new Protectorate's 'Mater'.

                                Over the decades the three tribes of Pure further divide the Themisine Protectorate among triadic councils - the Horae. Each council holds three Pure - one of each tribe - and each of the three councils is led by a different tribe.

                                The First Council is led by a Fire Touched in the seat of 'Xarpo', with The Ivory Claw in the seat of 'Thallo' and the Predator King in the seat of 'Auxo'.
                                The Second Council is led by an Ivory Claw in the seat of 'Eirene', with the Predator King in the seat of 'Dike' and the Fire Touched in the seat of 'Eunomia'
                                The Third Council is led by a Predator King in the Seat of 'Orthosie', witht he Fire Touched in the seat of 'Euporie' and the Ivory Claw in the seat of 'Pherusa'

                                These three councils shared authority over the Themisine Protectorate, supported by a Fourth Council of Nemeses. This council held limited authority - it was convened to lead Themesine packs to war, and membership was fluid. The Atropos seat was for the Predator King, the Clotho seat was given to the Ivory Claw, and the Lachesis seat was given to the Fire Touched. In times of great conflict multiple 'Fourth Councils' were created to cover different fronts, and only rarely was any 'Fourth' council completely filled. Most often, one tribe would fill their seat and take command of the local packs while another tribe would take command elsewhere.

                                Of course, this arrangement leads to a LOT of politicking.


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