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  • #31
    Wait, wait, wait - what about Forsaken then? Council of Thunder and Eagle was both Pure and Forsaken thing. I cannot just envision that Tribes of Moon just say 'well, Eastern Empire is not our problem' - not Iron Masters that held reign for most of it's creation. Especially, as Wolf & Raven chapter points they should be in Byzantium.

    Originally posted by Dark Eras, p. 148
    EASTERN EUROPE
    In the east, Swedish merchants and raiders have made their way down great rivers, capturing settlements such as Kiev to form vital links in the trade route to Constantinople. Byzantium, known in Sweden as “Greece,” received its first “Varangians” in 839, but sees a significant influx in the 870s. In 874 they are incorporated into the Byzantine Army, and in 988 Emperor Basil II creates the elite Varangian Guard to protect him from disloyal subjects. Varangian Uratha are perhaps the wealthiest in this period, whether rewarded for military service or paid for carrying silk and spices back to Scandinavia. Their journeys bring them into contact with many native packs and spirits, and few are welcoming. Constantinople is a draw for all Tribes of the Moon, from Blood Talons seeking Glory on the Aegean Sea to Bone Shadows seeking hidden Wisdom in the city’s Imperial Library.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 12-10-2017, 03:47 AM.


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    • #32
      Yes, there would certainly be a lot of conflict between those who claimed to inherit the Romulan Protectorate, and those who felt otherwise. And when the Themisine Councils want something done that they can't or don't want to risk Pure lives for, then hearkening back to the Foederatis practices of old, they would quite simply throw money at Forsaken packs to do the dirty work. Thus, Varangian Uratha can easily make their fortunes. Wealthy Forsaken, and useful Forsaken, are welcomed within the Themisine Protectorate, but they are not allowed on the Councils, and are thus excluded from ruling the Protectorate. This causes more politicking and conflict. Byzantium is still the hub of trade and travel, with millions of people passing through, but it is only a single (if important) city within the Protectorate.

      I'm not sure why you thought the Forsaken wouldn't be in Byzantium? The Protectorate is vast. The population of Uratha is tiny. And my short brain-storm covered maybe a century or so, to finish in the 4th or 5th Century, whereas your quote takes up from the 9th Century.

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      • #33
        Thinking on Forsaken spheres in Byzantine society - and maybe partially expend on nikink's Themisine Councils idea - is that in Eastern Roman world, especially in Constantinople, were chariots races and teams on it 'fanclubs' called demes. The team associations had become a focus for various social and political issues for which the general Byzantine population lacked other forms of outlet. They combined aspects of street gangs and political parties, taking positions on current issues, notably theological problems or claimants to the throne. They frequently tried to affect the policy of the emperors by shouting political demands between races. The imperial forces and guards in the city could not keep order without the cooperation of the circus factions which were in turn backed by the aristocratic families of the city; these included some families who believed they had a more rightful claim to the throne than Justinian.

        Forsaken influence
        Mix of street gangs, political and theological factions or even noble families - it all sounds a lot like Uratha influenced groups. And as Tribes of Moon are much more connected to humans society at large, interesting would be 'sponsorship' of Moon Tribes for demes, especially as with their inner competitiveness - but also general 'revolutionary' streak of the chariot teams system in the first place. If Pure try to pull Themisine Councils as their influence on Byzantines, at least Iron Master would 'return to people' and join with demes - probably even taking Blood Talons and Storm Lords with them. On the other hand, Bone Shadows and Hunters of Darkness would probably made other alliance, joining much more cloistered society of Orthodox Church - and hunting in libraries, monasteries and under temples of it.

        And there we have this nice story seed...

        Nika Riots

        In 531 some members of the Blues and Greens had been arrested for murder in connection with deaths that occurred during rioting after a recent chariot race. Relatively limited riots were not unknown at chariot races, similar to the football hooliganism that occasionally erupts after association football matches in modern times. The murderers were to be hanged, and most of them were. But on January 10, 532, two of them, a Blue and a Green, escaped and were taking refuge in the sanctuary of a church surrounded by an angry mob. For humans, it was start of Empire crisis known as Nika Riots, where even Justinian I was thinking about abdication. But for Tribes of Uratha it was closest to open warfare between Tribes of Moon and Pure in centuries in Protectorate. Rioters, coming from demes packs of Iron Masters and Blood Talons were invading spaces of Bone Shadows and Hunters in Darkness. Few days more and maybe Tribes of Moon would go against each other. But turns of events in Byzantine society made rioters turn against Emperor and his court. This started the conflict of local Forsaken population with Themisine Councils of Pure.
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-12-2018, 04:10 AM.


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        • #34
          Some intriguing revolutionary events in Byzantium's history...
          Inner religious wars in Byzantine Empire of 8th to 9th century
          Interesting conflict in Byzantium going over one century that hammered their Eastern Church doctrine, based on conflict between religious and ‘extreme’ secular forces in it. And it all started with paintings. Icons of holy figures, to be precise – like Christ, Mary, saints or angels.
          • In 5th century A.D. Saint Augustin points that in Eastern Roman Empire popular was icon worship. In 6th century, it’s gone over bowing to holy pictures and sculptures. In 7th century started to circle legends in Empire about Acheiropoietos – painting not created by human hand – and by this, created by God himself. There were stories about Icons bleeding blood, falling from the skies, curing sick and even resurrecting the dead!
          • In 726 A.D. Emperor Leo III the Isaurian ordered to remove the painting of Christ from his Palace entering gate – and to place simple cross in it’s place. It was start of Iconoclasm movement in Byzantine Empire, wanting to abolish worship of icons and figures in Eastern Church. It was strongly opposed by the Iconludes, people wanting to support worship of icons. Both factions fervently fought inside of Empire.
          • One of greatest Iconludes of that time was John of Damascus – he is said to so much enrage Emperor Leo III with his preaching and works that ruler command to sever one of his hands – and was locked for rest of his life in monastery of Saint Saba’s in Palastine. After this, thousands of Byzantine sacral art was destroyed by Iconoclasts, across Empire.
          • Pope Gregory III denounced Leo on Synod of Rome of year 731 A.D. Emperor chased Patriarch of Constantinople that reasoned with Pope. Gregory III then putted curse on Byzantine Emperor.
          • Son of Leon III – Constantine V – in year 754 he issued the edict that any representation of Christ is idolatry! He then gone step further and banned smoking candles and incense. It was not only based on rational thinking and fighting with Iconludes – but also about political show of power. In 8th century Eastern Church was still officially dependent on Rome and Pope, even with less and less sway over Byzantine priests. Constantine need to show he can control his own Empire before Pope. Emperor’s soldiers were merciless to worshipers of icons – they blinded them or drowned them in bags. Monks that created icons were hunted and killed – at best. They are accounts of monks being mutilated, forced to break religious vows or marriage to whores. Monasteries were changed in to baths and barracks for Empires army. Iconoclasts burned icons. They destroyed mosaics on walls. They broke sculptures and iconostasis – special decorated walls for icons in Eastern churches. Monasteries were disbanded and valuables went to the treasury of Constantine. Iconludes were running before Empire oppression to Italy, Palestine and Cyprus.
          • Council of Hieria was summoned by the Constantine V in 754 in the palace of Hieria opposite Constantinople. The council supported the emperor's iconoclast position in the Byzantine iconoclasm controversy, making it de facto state religion in Eastern Roman Empire. Opponents of the council described it as the Mock Synod of Constantinople or the Headless Council because no patriarchs or representatives of the five main patriarchs were present: Constantinople was vacant, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria were controlled by Islamic rulers, while Rome was not asked to participate. Its rulings were anathematized at the Lateran Council of 769.
          • After Constantine V death in 775 the Emperor become Leo IV that ruled only 5 years. In 780 Constantine’s first wife, Irena, become Empress-regent over his son. She brought back religious freedom and worship of icons was once again safe in Empire. She even forced the arrangements Council of Hieria from being overturned almost entirely by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787, which supported the veneration of icons. Iconclasts in Empire were branded heretics by it!
          • Empire was once again more or less stable, until the year 813 A.D. when Leo V become Emperor of Byzantium. He started to blame icons worshipers as reason for anything wrong in Empire. He removed Christ from his Palace gates and on once again called Council of Hieria in 815 he restituted rulings from year 754, in the same place.
          • In year 821 Thomas the Slav lead the revolt against banning on icons worship and lessening the influence of land owners in Empire. Thomas was Byzantine commander, from Slavic descendants, that convinced Slavs, Arabs, Iberians and Persians, poor and excluded in Empire – all to join his vision of building better, more just world. He even was crowned Emperor by patriarch of Antioch and ruled in 821-823 A.D. big part of Asia Minor! He sieged Constantinople and impaled on a stake in 823. His supporters and their families were brutally repressed after it. Iconoclasts triumphed once again.
          • In 843, Empress Theodora, after death of her husband Theophilos, ended Iconoclast by calling next synod on that she strengthen agreements of Second Council of Nicaea from 787. She made it after seeing monks Theodore and Teophanes from Jerusalem that had Iconclasts verses burned on their foreheads by Theophilos before. She said her husband he expressed remorse for his previous doings – and so she ended repressions of icons worship in Empire.
          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-12-2018, 04:17 AM.


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          • #35
            So some story seeds coming from Iconclasts conflicts in Byzantine Empire…
            • Vampire: Lancea Sanctum is divided over icons worship. Some paintings are said to bleed blood, some sculptures are said to be angels in disguise. Many local structures of Church Ethernal are undermined by Iconclasts movements – and yet, some of them support those ‘heresies’, in political coup on Elder Priests and Bishops that need to be take out of their powers. Those are historical nights for Sanctuary and Lance.
            • Werewolf: Many icons are Fetishes or Totems and spirits Fetters. Iconclasts movements hunts and destroy them – often coming after werewolves packs centered around those. With Bone Shadows and Hunters in Darkness so entwined in Eastern Church – many members of those Tribes need to point where they allegiance are. Often times, it ends with Sacred Hunt declared on previous hunters of icons themselves. Other Tribes most of the time do not interfere as icons are literally holy items to most Uratha, even when they could politically support Iconoclasts – as those are prone to become really unhinged from Lunacy effect on them. But there are stories of some Icons keeping Idigams or their servants inside – then previous human enemies become natural alliance in taking out dangerous item out of creation. Until Herd Will Not Know, that is.
            • Mage: Iconclasm is very dangerous thing for Awakened. This movement easily spread next Witch Hunters or Banishers, not only destroying magical items in removed monasteries. It’s especially problematic for Panscryptia Order that try to seclude itself from normal life of humans in Empire. However both Diamond and Seers of Throne plays on moods in the state, trying to use Sleepers conflict as a way to depose their Awakened enemies. There are rumors about some Scelesti using profane icons as means to connect with Void and bringing down on the world by mortals worship of it.


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            • #36
              Originally posted by nikink View Post
              Yes, there would certainly be a lot of conflict between those who claimed to inherit the Romulan Protectorate, and those who felt otherwise. And when the Themisine Councils want something done that they can't or don't want to risk Pure lives for, then hearkening back to the Foederatis practices of old, they would quite simply throw money at Forsaken packs to do the dirty work. Thus, Varangian Uratha can easily make their fortunes. Wealthy Forsaken, and useful Forsaken, are welcomed within the Themisine Protectorate, but they are not allowed on the Councils, and are thus excluded from ruling the Protectorate. This causes more politicking and conflict. Byzantium is still the hub of trade and travel, with millions of people passing through, but it is only a single (if important) city within the Protectorate.

              I'm not sure why you thought the Forsaken wouldn't be in Byzantium? The Protectorate is vast. The population of Uratha is tiny. And my short brain-storm covered maybe a century or so, to finish in the 4th or 5th Century, whereas your quote takes up from the 9th Century.

              Your Mileage May Vary.
              Do As Thou Wilt At Your Own Table.
              My Ideas Aren't Canon - Use Or Ignore As You Like.

              Makes a much sense as anything, Nikink. I can see the finger-marks of Werewolf 2e on this and your previous post: essentially the Urathra are not the ones to stand behind what we would consider mortal super-organizations, especially at this time. They remain smaller-scale and at semi-antagonistic odds with the Pure. Now, the Pure, on the other hand, are not numerous enough to cover the whole land and reap its benefits in essence and loci, nor are they inclined to police its spirits. Thus, useful Forsaken may be inducted into the Protectorate and, especially, settled in areas where they will help to uphold Byzantine/Themisine limes against antagonists both mortal and supernatural.

              After all, the "mater" spirit of Muhammad's army was, for example, a vast threat. And other barbarian incursions carried their own spiritual burdens that were not subtle in their desire to remake the Protectorate in their own image.

              Your thoughts are appreciated. What do you think these Themisine would do with other supernaturals, especially as the Pure are not the ruthless gardeners of the spirit-world that the Forsaken are? I'm thinking especially of being such as Vamps, Mages and Changelings.

              --Khanwulf

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              • #37
                Thanks, Khanwulf.
                I'll have a think and get back to you. Hopefully before Christmas, almost definitely before New Year.


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                • #38
                  Byzantines: Engineering an Empire - Interesting documentary about most important Engineering and Conflicts achievements the East Roman Empire done in it's time. Good to 'see' how greatest architecture marvels in Constantinople looked like. It also shows threats like Attila and it's Huns as danger to Byzantium.

                  Last edited by wyrdhamster; 12-21-2017, 05:39 PM.


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                  • #39
                    As you cannot talk about Byzantine Empire influence on Medieval society of Europe from 8th till 12th century without it's western and northern neighbors and Varangians - I show you...

                    Ethymology of term 'Varangians'

                    Medieval Greek Βάραγγος Várangos and Old East Slavic Варягъ Varjagŭ (Old Church Slavonic Варѧгъ Varęgŭ) are derived from Old Norse væringi, originally a compound of vár 'pledge' or 'faith', and gengi 'companion', thus meaning 'sworn companion', 'confederate', extended to mean 'a foreigner who has taken service with a new lord by a treaty of fealty to him', or 'protégé'. Some scholars seem to assume a derivation from vár with the common suffix -ing.

                    And why Væringi were formed in the first place:
                    "Trade through Russia was difficult in part because of hostile Slavic tribes, including the Krivichi (near Smolensk), the Dreovichi and Drevljane (west of the Dneiper), the Radimichi (east of the Dneiper), the Pechinegs, Poljani and Magyars (on the lower Dneiper), and the Khazars (east of the Slavs). Traders had to be as much warriors as businessmen, for the Slavic tribes a significant hazard. As a result, bands of Scandinavians who travelled eastwards joined formally as companies, swearing oaths of mutual assistance, defense, and support. The term for such an oath in Old Norse is 'Var', and these eastern adventurers became known as Varangians."


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                    • #40
                      ​I also give you,,,,

                      Origin of (Kievan) Rus & relations with Byzantium
                      (Based on this and this Wikipedia articles )

                      According to the earliest East Slavic record, the Primary Chronicle, the Rus' were a group of Varangians who lived, along with other groups like Swedes and Gutes in present day Sweden in Scandinavia and as far as the land of the English and the French. Chronicle mentions the territories of the East Slavs in the 9th century were divided between the Varangians and the Khazars. The Varangians are first mentioned imposing tribute from Slavic and Finnic tribes in 859. In 862, the Finnic and Slavic tribes in the area of Novgorod rebelled against the Varangians, driving them "back beyond the sea and, refusing them further tribute, set out to govern themselves." The tribes had no laws, however, and soon began to make war with one another, prompting them to invite the Varangians back to rule them and bring peace to the region:

                      The four tribes who had been forced to pay tribute to the Varangians—Chuds, Slavs, Merians, and Krivichs—drove the Varangians back beyond the sea, refused to pay them further tribute, and set out to govern themselves. But there was no law among them, and tribe rose against tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they began to war one against the other. They said to themselves, "Let us seek a prince who may rule over us, and judge us according to custom". Thus they went overseas to the Varangians, to the Rus. These particular Varangians were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes, and others Normans and Angles, and still others Gutes, for they were thus named. The Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichs and the Vepsthen said to the Rus, "Our land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. Come reign as princes, rule over us". Three brothers, with their kinfolk, were selected. They brought with them all the Rus and migrated.
                      — The Primary Chronicle

                      Later, the Primary Chronicle claims, they conquered Kiev and created the state of Kievan Rus' (which, as most historians agree, was preceded by the Rus' Khaganate). The territory they conquered was named after them as were, eventually, the local people.

                      The three brothers—Rurik, Sineus, and Truvor—established themselves in Novgorod, Beloozero, and Izborsk, respectively. Two of the brothers died, and Rurik became the sole ruler of the territory and progenitor of the Rurik Dynasty. A short time later, two of Rurik’s men, Askold and Dir, asked him for permission to go to Tsargrad (Constantinople). On their way south, they discovered "a small city on a hill," Kiev, captured it and the surrounding country from the Khazars, populated the region with more Varangians, and "established their dominion over the country of the Polyanians."

                      The Chronicle reports that Askold and Dir continued to Constantinople with a navy to attack the city in 863–66, catching the Byzantines by surprise and ravaging the surrounding area, though other accounts date the attack in 860. Patriarch Photius vividly describes the "universal" devastation of the suburbs and nearby islands, and another account further details the destruction and slaughter of the invasion. The Rus' turned back before attacking the city itself, due either to a storm dispersing their boats, the return of the Emperor, or in a later account, due to a miracle after a ceremonial appeal by the Patriarch and the Emperor to the Virgin. The attack was the first encounter between the Rus' and Byzantines and led the Patriarch to send missionaries north to engage and attempt to convert the Rus' and the Slavs.
                      Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-09-2018, 08:32 AM.


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                      • #41
                        And as we are at Kievan Rus, good is to know that from 830's to 890's there was pre-Kievan Russain polity in the area, called...

                        Rus' Khaganate
                        The Rus' Khaganate is the name applied by some modern historians to a polity that was postulated to exist during a poorly documented period in the history of Eastern Europe, roughly the late 8th and early-to-mid-9th centuries AD.

                        It was suggested that the Rus' Khaganate was a state, or a cluster of city-states, set up by a people called Rus', described in all contemporary sources as being Norsemen, somewhere in what is today European Russia, as a chronological predecessor to the Rurik Dynasty and the Kievan Rus'. The region's population at that time was composed of Baltic, Slavic, Finnic, Turkic, Hungarian, and Norse peoples. The region was also a place of operations for Varangians, eastern Scandinavian adventurers, merchants, and pirates.
                        In sparse contemporaneous sources, the leader or leaders of Rus people at this time were referred to by the Old Turkic title Khagan, hence the suggested name of their polity.

                        Extant primary sources make it plausible that the title of khagan was applied to the rulers of the Rus' during a rather short period, roughly between their embassy to Constantinople (838) and Basil I's letter (871). All Byzantine sources after Basil I refer to the Rus' rulers as archons (Greek for "ruler").

                        The dating of the Khaganate's existence has been the subject of debates among scholars and remains unclear. Paul Robert Magocsi and Omeljan Pritsak date the foundation of the Khaganate to be around the year 830. According to Magocsi, "A violent civil war took place during the 820s with "The losers of the internal political struggle, known as Kabars, fled northward to the Varangian Rus' in the upper Volga region, near Rostov, and southward to the Magyars, who formerly had been loyal vassals of the Khazars. The presence of Kabar political refugees from Khazaria among the Varangian traders in Rostov helped to raise the latter's prestige, with the consequence that by the 830s a new power center known as the Rus' Kaganate had come into existence." Whatever the accuracy of such estimates may be, there are no primary sources mentioning the Rus' or its khagans prior to the 830s.

                        Equally contentious has been discussion about the date of the khaganate's disintegration. The title of Khagan is not mentioned in the Rus'-Byzantine treaties (907, 911, 944), or in De Ceremoniis, a record of court ceremonials meticulously documenting the titles of foreign rulers, when it deals with Olga's reception at the court of Constantine VII in 945. Moreover, ibn Fadlan, in his detailed account of the Rus (922), designated their supreme ruler as malik ("king"). From this fact, Peter Golden concluded via an argumentum ex silentio that the khaganate collapsed at some point between 871 and 922. Zuckerman, meanwhile, argues that the absence of the title "khagan" from the first Russo-Byzantine Treaty proves that the khaganate had vanished by 911.

                        Location

                        Recent archaeological research, conducted by Anatoly Kirpichnikov and Dmitry Machinsky, has raised the possibility that this polity was based on a group of settlements along the Volkhov River, including Ladoga, Lyubsha, Duboviki, Alaborg, and Holmgard. "Most of these were initially small sites, probably not much more than stations for re-fitting and resupply, providing an opportunity for exchange and the redistribution of items passing along the river and caravan routes". If the anonymous traveller quoted by ibn Rustah is to be believed, the Rus of the Khaganate period made extensive use of the Volga route to trade with the Middle East, possibly through Bulgar and Khazar intermediaries. His description of the Rus' island suggests that their center was at Holmgard, an early medieval precursor of Novgorod whose name translates from Old Norse as "the river-island castle". The First Novgorod Chronicle describes unrest in Novgorod before Rurik was invited to come rule the region in the 860s. This account prompted Johannes Brøndsted to assert that Holmgard-Novgorod was the khaganate's capital for several decades prior to the appearance of Rurik, including the time of the Byzantine embassy in 839. Machinsky accepts this theory but notes that, before the rise of Holmgard-Novgorod, the chief political and economic centre of the area was located at Aldeigja-Ladoga.


                        Origin

                        The origins of the Rus' Khaganate are unclear. The first Norse settlers of the region arrived in the lower basin of the Volkhov River in the mid-8th century. The country comprising the present-day Saint-Petersburg, Novgorod, Tver, Yaroslavl, and Smolensk regions became known in Old Norse sources as "Garðaríki", the Land of Forts. Around the 860 Rus', a group of Vikings perhaps from Roden, Sweden, began to rule the area under their leader Rurik. Gradually, Norse warlords, known to the Turkic-speaking steppe peoples as "köl-beki" or "lake-princes", came to dominate some of the region's Finno-Ugric and Slavic peoples, particularly along the Volga trade route linking the Baltic Sea with the Caspian Sea and Serkland.
                        Omeljan Pritsak speculated that a Khazar khagan named Khan-Tuvan Dyggvi, exiled after losing a civil war, settled with his followers in the Norse-Slavic settlement of Rostov, married into the local Scandinavian nobility, and fathered the dynasty of the Rus' khagans. Zuckerman dismisses Pritsak's theory as untenable speculation,[40] and no record of any Khazar khagan fleeing to find refuge among the Rus' exists in contemporaneous sources.Nev ertheless, the possible Khazar connection to early Rus' monarchs is supported by the use of a stylized trident tamga, or seal, by later Rus' rulers such as Sviatoslav I of Kiev; similar tamgas are found in ruins that are definitively Khazar in origin. The genealogical connection between the 9th century Khagans of Rus' and the later Rurikid rulers, if any, is unknown at this time.
                        Most historians agree that the title "khagan" was borrowed by the Rus from the Khazars, but there is considerable dispute over the circumstances of this borrowing. Peter Benjamin Golden presumes that the Rus' khaganate was a puppet state set up by the Khazars in the basin of the Oka River to fend off recurring attacks of the Magyars. However, no source records that the Rus' of the 9th century were subjects of the Khazars. For foreign observers (such as Ibn Rustah), there was no material difference between the titles of the Khazar and Rus' rulers.Anatoly Novoseltsev hypothesizes that the adoption of the title "khagan" was designed to advertise the Rus' claims to the equality with the Khazars. This theory is echoed by Thomas Noonan, who asserts that the Rus' leaders were loosely unified under the rule of one of the "sea-kings" in the early 9th century, and that this "High King" adopted the title "khagan" to give him legitimacy in the eyes of his subjects and neighboring states. According to this theory, the title was a sign that the bearers ruled under a divine mandate.


                        Goverment

                        Writing in 922, Ibn Fadlan described the Rus' ruler as having little real authority like the Khazar khagan. Instead, political and military power was wielded by a deputy, who "commands the troops, attacks [the Rus' ruler's] enemies, and acts as his representative before his subjects." The supreme king of the Rus', on the other hand, "has no duties other than to make love to his slave girls, drink, and give himself up to pleasure." He was guarded by 400 men, "willing to die for him ... These 400 sit below the royal throne: a large and bejewelled platform which also accommodates the forty slave-girls of his harem." Ibn Fadlan wrote that the Rus' ruler would almost never leave his throne and even "when he wants to go riding his horse is led up to him, and on his return the horse is brought right up to the throne." Ibn Rustah, on the other hand, reported that the khagan was the ultimate authority in settling disputes between his subjects. His decisions, however, were not binding, so that if one of the disputants disagreed with the khagan's ruling, the dispute was then resolved in a battle, which took place "in the presence of the contestants' kin who stand with swords drawn; and the man who gets the better of the duel also gets the decision about the matter in dispute."
                        The dichotomy between the relative powerlessness of the nominal ruler and the great authority of his subordinate reflects the structure of Khazar government, with secular authority in the hands of a Khagan Bek only theoretically subordinate to the khagan, and it agrees with the traditional Germanic system, where there could be a division between the king and the military commander. Moreover, some scholars have noted similarities between this dual kingship and the postulated relationship between Igor and Oleg of Kievin the early 10th century (compare Askold and Dir in the 9th century). The institution of separate sacral ruler and military commander may be observed in the reconstructed relationship between Oleg and Igor, but whether this is part of the Rus' Khaganate's legacy to its successor-state is unknown. The early Kievan Rus' principalities exhibited certain distinctive characteristics in their government, military organization, and jurisprudence that were comparable to those in force among the Khazars and other steppe peoples; some historians believe that these elements came to Kievan Rus' from the Khazars by way of the earlier Rus' Khagans.



                        ​So yes, Khanwulf, you had right - at least from 820's we have Rus Khanagate in area - and at least from 753 we have first 'Rus'/Norseman stronghold in area Aldeigja-Ladoga. In my game at 800 A.D. I made Ladoga as Finnish colony, with little to no contact with proper Norse till this date. But it will quickly change once Swedish Norseman find it...
                        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-11-2018, 09:22 AM.


                        My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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                        • #42
                          Personally, I would love to set almost any game in Kiev the Golden. I love the early Rus.

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                          • #43
                            And as we are at topic of start of Russia, let’s talk about one of greatest projects of Byzantine Empire. Here you got…

                            Christianization of Slavs and Creation of Cyrillic Script
                            Both are inseparably connected with life of two monks from Byzantium - Saints Cyril and Methodius. They were born in Thessalonica, in present-day Greece – Cyril in about 827–828 and Methodius about 815–820. Cyril was reputedly the youngest of seven brothers. He was born Constantine, but took the name Cyril upon becoming a monk in Rome shortly before his death, according to the Vita Cyrilli ("The Life of Cyril"). Methodius was born Michael and took the name Methodius upon becoming a monk at Mysian Olympus (present-day Uludağ), in northwest Turkey. Their father was Leo, a droungarios (commander of a formation known as droungos) of the Byzantine theme of Thessalonica, and their mother was Maria.
                            The exact ethnic origins of the brothers are unknown, there is controversy as to whether Cyril and Methodius were of Slavic or Byzantine Greek origin, or both. The two brothers lost their father when Cyril was fourteen, and the powerful minister Theoktistos, who was logothetes tou dromou (head of Public Post), one of the chief ministers of the Empire, became their protector. He was also responsible, along with the regent Bardas, for initiating a far-reaching educational program within the Empire which culminated in the establishment of the University of Magnaura, where Cyril was to teach. Cyril was ordained as priest some time after his education, while his brother Methodius remained only a deacon until 867/868.

                            Missions in the Middle East


                            Cyril's mastery of theology and command of both Arabic and Hebrew made him eligible for his first state mission. He was sent to the Abbasid Caliph Al-Mutawakkil to discuss the principle of the Holy Trinity with the Arab theologians, and to improve relations between the Caliphate and the Empire.
                            The second mission (860), requested by the Byzantine Emperor Michael III and the Patriarch of Constantinople Photius (a professor of Cyril's at the University and his guiding light in earlier years), was a missionary expedition to the Khazar Khaganate in order to prevent the expansion of Judaism there. This mission was unsuccessful, as later the Khagan imposed Judaism on his people as the national religion. It has been claimed that Methodius accompanied Cyril on the mission to the Khazars, but this is probably a later invention. The account of his life presented in the Latin "Legenda" claims that he learned the Khazar language while in Chersonesos, in Taurica (today Crimea).
                            After his return to Constantinople, Cyril assumed the role of professor of philosophy at the University while his brother had by this time become a significant player in Byzantine political and administrative affairs, and an abbot of his monastery.


                            Mission to the Slavs

                            Most Important - Great Moravia



                            In 862, the brothers began the work which would give them their historical importance. That year Prince Rastislav of Great Moravia requested that Emperor Michael III and the Patriarch Photius send missionaries to evangelize his Slavic subjects. His motives in doing so were probably more political than religious. Rastislav had become king with the support of the Frankish ruler Louis the German, but subsequently sought to assert his independence from the Franks. It is a common misconception that Cyril and Methodius were the first to bring Christianity to Moravia, but the letter from Rastislav to Michael III states clearly that Rastislav's people "had already rejected paganism and adhere to the Christian law." Rastislav is said to have expelled missionaries of the Roman Church and instead turned to Constantinople for ecclesiastical assistance and, presumably, a degree of political support. The Emperor quickly chose to send Cyril, accompanied by his brother Methodius. The request provided a convenient opportunity to expand Byzantine influence. Their first work seems to have been the training of assistants. In 863, they began the task of translating the Bible into the language now known as Old Church Slavonic and travelled to Great Moravia to promote it. They enjoyed considerable success in this endeavour. However, they came into conflict with German ecclesiastics who opposed their efforts to create a specifically Slavic liturgy.
                            For the purpose of this mission, they devised the Glagolitic alphabet, the first script to be used for Slavonic manuscripts. The Glagolitic alphabet was suited to match the specific features of the Slavic language. Its descendant script was Cyrillic proper.
                            They wrote the first Slavic Civil Code, which was used in Great Moravia. The language derived from Old Church Slavonic, known as Church Slavonic, is still used in liturgy by several Orthodox Churches and also in some Eastern Catholic churches.
                            It is impossible to determine with certainty what portions of the Bible the brothers translated. The New Testament and the Psalms seem to have been the first, followed by other lessons from the Old Testament. The "Translatio" speaks only of a version of the Gospels by Cyril, and the "Vita Methodii" only of the "evangelium Slovenicum", though other liturgical selections may also have been translated.
                            Nor is it known for sure which liturgy, that of Rome or that of Constantinople, they took as a source. They may well have used the Roman alphabet, as suggested by liturgical fragments which adhere closely to the Latin type. This view is confirmed by the "Prague Fragments" and by certain Old Glagolitic liturgical fragments brought from Jerusalem to Kiev and discovered there by Saresnewsky—probably the oldest document for the Slavonic tongue; these adhere closely to the Latin type, as is shown by the words "Mass,""Preface," and the name of one Felicitas. In any case, the circumstances were such that the brothers could hope for no permanent success without obtaining the authorization of Rome.
                            Journey to Rome


                            In 867, Pope Nicholas I invited the brothers to Rome. Their evangelizing mission in Moravia had by this time become the focus of a dispute with Theotmar, the Archbishop of Salzburg and bishop of Passau, who claimed ecclesiastical control of the same territory and wished to see it use the Latin liturgy exclusively. Travelling with the relics of Saint Clement and a retinue of disciples, and passing through Pannonia (the Balaton Principality), where they were well received by Prince Koceľ (Kocelj, Kozel), they arrived in Rome in 868, where they were warmly received. This was partly due to their bringing with them the relics of Saint Clement. The rivalry with Constantinople as to the jurisdiction over the territory of the Slavs would incline Rome to value the brothers and their influence. The brothers were praised for their learning and cultivated for their influence in Constantinople. Anastasius Bibliothecarius would later call Cyril "a man of apostolic life" and "a man of great wisdom". Their project in Moravia found support from Pope Adrian II, who formally authorized the use of the new Slavic liturgy. Subsequently Methodius was ordained as priest by the pope himself, and five Slavic disciples were ordained as priests (Saint Gorazd, Saint Clement of Ohrid and Saint Naum) and as deacons (Saint Angelar and Saint Sava) by the prominent bishops Formosus and Gauderic. The newly made priests officiated in their own languages at the altars of some of the principal churches. Feeling his end approaching, Cyril became a monk, was given the new name Cyril, and died in Rome fifty days later (14 February 869). There is some question as to assertion of the Translatio (ix.) that he was made a bishop.
                            Methodius alone


                            Methodius now continued the work among the Slavs alone. Not at first in Great Moravia, but in Pannonia owing to the political circumstances of the former country, where Rastislav had been taken captive by his nephew Svatopluk, then delivered over to Carloman, and condemned in a diet of the empire at the end of 870.
                            Friendly relations had been established with Koceľ on the journey to Rome. This activity in Pannonia made a conflict inevitable with the German episcopate, and especially with the bishop of Salzburg, to whose jurisdiction Pannonia had belonged for seventy-five years. In 865 Bishop Adalwin is found exercising all Episcopal rights there, and the administration under him was in the hands of the archpriest Riehbald. The latter was obliged to retire to Salzburg, but his superior was naturally disinclined to abandon his claims. Methodius sought support from Rome. The Vita asserts that Koceľ sent him thither with an honorable escort to receive Episcopal consecration.
                            The letter given as Adrian's in chap. viii., with its approval of the Slavonic mass, is a pure invention. The pope named Methodius archbishop of Sirmium with jurisdiction over Great Moravia and Pannonia, thus superseding the claims of Salzburg by an older title. The statement of the "Vita" that Methodius was made bishop in 870 and not raised to the dignity of an archbishop until 873 is contradicted by the brief of Pope John VIII, written in June 879, according to which Adrian consecrated him archbishop; John includes in his jurisdiction not only Great Moravia and Pannonia, but Serbia as well.
                            Methodius' final years


                            The archiepiscopal claims of Methodius were considered such an injury to the rights of Salzburg that he was forced to answer for them at a synod held at Regensburg in the presence of King Louis. The assembly, after a heated discussion, declared the deposition of the intruder, and ordered him to be sent to Germany, where he was kept prisoner in Ellwangen for two and a half years. In spite of the strong representations of the Conversio Bagoariorum et Carantanorum, written in 871 to influence the pope, though not avowing this purpose, Rome declared emphatically for Methodius, and sent a bishop, Paul of Ancons, to reinstate him and punish his enemies, after which both parties were commanded to appear in Rome with the legate.
                            The papal will prevailed, and Methodius secured his freedom and his archiepiscopal authority over both Great Moravia and Pannonia, though the use of Slavonic for the mass was still denied to him. His authority was restricted in Pannonia when after Koceľ's death the principality was administered by German nobles; but Svatopluk now ruled with practical independence in Great Moravia, and expelled the German clergy. This apparently secured an undisturbed field of operation for Methodius, and the Vita (x.) depicts the next few years (873–879) as a period of fruitful progress. Methodius seems to have disregarded, wholly or in part, the prohibition of the Slavonic liturgy; and when Frankish clerics again found their way into the country, and the archbishop's strictness had displeased the licentious Svatopluk, this was made a cause of complaint against him at Rome, coupled with charges regarding the Filioque – philosophical debate in Church if Son was created by Holy Spirit, or created Holy Spirit – so should Son be praised in prayers ( side of Rome ).
                            Methodius vindicated his orthodoxy at Rome, the more easily as the creed was still recited there without the Filioque, and promised to obey in regard to the liturgy. The other party was conciliated by giving him a Swabian, Wiching, as his coadjutor. When relations were strained between the two, John VIII steadfastly supported Methodius - but after his death (December 882) the archbishop's position became insecure, and his need of support induced Goetz to accept the statement of the Vita (xiii.) that he went to visit the Eastern emperor.
                            It was not until after Methodius' death, which is placed on 6 April 885, that the animosity erupted into an open conflict. Gorazd, whom Methodius had designated as his successor, was not recognized by Pope Stephen V. The same Pope forbade the use of the Slavic liturgy and placed the infamous Wiching as Methodius' successor. The latter exiled the disciples of the two brothers from Great Moravia in 885. They fled to the First Bulgarian Empire, where they were welcomed and commissioned to establish theological schools. There they devised the Cyrillic script on the basis of the Glagolitic. Cyrillic gradually replaced Glagolitic as the alphabet of the Old Church Slavonic language, which became the official language of the Bulgarian Empire and later spread to the Eastern Slav lands of Kievan Rus'. Cyrillic eventually spread throughout most of the Slavic world to become the standard alphabet in the Eastern Orthodox Slavic countries. Hence, Cyril and Methodius' efforts also paved the way for the spread of Christianity throughout Eastern Europe.
                            Methodius' body was buried in the main cathedral church of Great Moravia. Until today it remains an open question which city was capital of Great Moravia and therefore the place of Methodius' eternal rest remains unknown.
                            Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-17-2018, 06:21 AM.


                            My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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                            • #44
                              And as we are at topic of start of Russia, let’s talk about one of greatest projects of Byzantine Empire. Here you got…
                              Christianization of Slavs and Creation of Cyrillic Script
                              Both are inseparably connected with life of two monks from Byzantium - Saints Cyril and Methodius. They were born in Thessalonica, in present-day Greece – Cyril in about 827–828 and Methodius about 815–820. Cyril was reputedly the youngest of seven brothers. He was born Constantine, but took the name Cyril upon becoming a monk in Rome shortly before his death, according to the Vita Cyrilli ("The Life of Cyril"). Methodius was born Michael and took the name Methodius upon becoming a monk at Mysian Olympus (present-day Uludağ), in northwest Turkey. Their father was Leo, a droungarios (commander of a formation known as droungos) of the Byzantine theme of Thessalonica, and their mother was Maria.
                              The exact ethnic origins of the brothers are unknown, there is controversy as to whether Cyril and Methodius were of Slavic or Byzantine Greek origin, or both. The two brothers lost their father when Cyril was fourteen, and the powerful minister Theoktistos, who was logothetes tou dromou (head of Public Post), one of the chief ministers of the Empire, became their protector. He was also responsible, along with the regent Bardas, for initiating a far-reaching educational program within the Empire which culminated in the establishment of the University of Magnaura, where Cyril was to teach. Cyril was ordained as priest some time after his education, while his brother Methodius remained only a deacon until 867/868. Missions in the Middle East


                              Cyril's mastery of theology and command of both Arabic and Hebrew made him eligible for his first state mission. He was sent to the Abbasid Caliph Al-Mutawakkil to discuss the principle of the Holy Trinity with the Arab theologians, and to improve relations between the Caliphate and the Empire.
                              The second mission (860), requested by the Byzantine Emperor Michael III and the Patriarch of Constantinople Photius (a professor of Cyril's at the University and his guiding light in earlier years), was a missionary expedition to the Khazar Khaganate in order to prevent the expansion of Judaism there. This mission was unsuccessful, as later the Khagan imposed Judaism on his people as the national religion. It has been claimed that Methodius accompanied Cyril on the mission to the Khazars, but this is probably a later invention. The account of his life presented in the Latin "Legenda" claims that he learned the Khazar language while in Chersonesos, in Taurica (today Crimea).
                              After his return to Constantinople, Cyril assumed the role of professor of philosophy at the University while his brother had by this time become a significant player in Byzantine political and administrative affairs, and an abbot of his monastery.
                              Mission to the Slavs

                              Most Important - Great Moravia


                              In 862, the brothers began the work which would give them their historical importance. That year Prince Rastislav of Great Moravia requested that Emperor Michael III and the Patriarch Photius send missionaries to evangelize his Slavic subjects. His motives in doing so were probably more political than religious. Rastislav had become king with the support of the Frankish ruler Louis the German, but subsequently sought to assert his independence from the Franks. It is a common misconception that Cyril and Methodius were the first to bring Christianity to Moravia, but the letter from Rastislav to Michael III states clearly that Rastislav's people "had already rejected paganism and adhere to the Christian law." Rastislav is said to have expelled missionaries of the Roman Church and instead turned to Constantinople for ecclesiastical assistance and, presumably, a degree of political support. The Emperor quickly chose to send Cyril, accompanied by his brother Methodius. The request provided a convenient opportunity to expand Byzantine influence. Their first work seems to have been the training of assistants. In 863, they began the task of translating the Bible into the language now known as Old Church Slavonic and travelled to Great Moravia to promote it. They enjoyed considerable success in this endeavour. However, they came into conflict with German ecclesiastics who opposed their efforts to create a specifically Slavic liturgy.
                              For the purpose of this mission, they devised the Glagolitic alphabet, the first script to be used for Slavonic manuscripts. The Glagolitic alphabet was suited to match the specific features of the Slavic language. Its descendant script was Cyrillic proper.
                              They wrote the first Slavic Civil Code, which was used in Great Moravia. The language derived from Old Church Slavonic, known as Church Slavonic, is still used in liturgy by several Orthodox Churches and also in some Eastern Catholic churches.
                              It is impossible to determine with certainty what portions of the Bible the brothers translated. The New Testament and the Psalms seem to have been the first, followed by other lessons from the Old Testament. The "Translatio" speaks only of a version of the Gospels by Cyril, and the "Vita Methodii" only of the "evangelium Slovenicum", though other liturgical selections may also have been translated.
                              Nor is it known for sure which liturgy, that of Rome or that of Constantinople, they took as a source. They may well have used the Roman alphabet, as suggested by liturgical fragments which adhere closely to the Latin type. This view is confirmed by the "Prague Fragments" and by certain Old Glagolitic liturgical fragments brought from Jerusalem to Kiev and discovered there by Saresnewsky—probably the oldest document for the Slavonic tongue; these adhere closely to the Latin type, as is shown by the words "Mass,""Preface," and the name of one Felicitas. In any case, the circumstances were such that the brothers could hope for no permanent success without obtaining the authorization of Rome.


                              My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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                              • #45
                                And as we are at topic of origins of modern Russia, let’s talk about one of greatest projects of Byzantine Empire. Here you got…

                                Christianization of Slavs and Creation of Cyrillic Script
                                Both are inseparably connected with life of two monks from Byzantium - Saints Cyril and Methodius. They were born in Thessalonica, in present-day Greece – Cyril in about 827–828 and Methodius about 815–820. Cyril was reputedly the youngest of seven brothers. He was born Constantine, but took the name Cyril upon becoming a monk in Rome shortly before his death, according to the Vita Cyrilli ("The Life of Cyril"). Methodius was born Michael and took the name Methodius upon becoming a monk at Mysian Olympus (present-day Uludağ), in northwest Turkey. Their father was Leo, a droungarios (commander of a military formation known as droungos) of the Byzantine theme of Thessalonica, and their mother was Maria. The exact ethnic origins of the brothers are unknown, there is controversy as to whether Cyril and Methodius were of Slavic or Byzantine Greek origin, or both. The two brothers lost their father when Cyril was fourteen, and the powerful minister Theoktistos, who was logothetes tou dromou (head of Byzantine's Public Post), one of the chief ministers of the Empire, became their protector. He was also responsible, along with the regent Bardas, for initiating a far-reaching educational program within the Empire which culminated in the establishment of the University of Magnaura, where Cyril was to teach. Cyril was ordained as priest some time after his education, while his brother Methodius remained only a deacon until 867/868.

                                Missions in the Middle East

                                Cyril's mastery of theology and command of both Arabic and Hebrew made him eligible for his first state mission. He was sent to the Abbasid Caliph Al-Mutawakkil to discuss the principle of the Holy Trinity with the Arab theologians, and to improve relations between the Caliphate and the Empire.
                                The second mission (860), requested by the Byzantine Emperor Michael III and the Patriarch of Constantinople Photius (a professor of Cyril's at the University and his guiding light in earlier years), was a missionary expedition to the Khazar Khaganate in order to prevent the expansion of Judaism there. This mission was unsuccessful, as later the Khagan imposed Judaism on his people as the national religion. It has been claimed that Methodius accompanied Cyril on the mission to the Khazars, but this is probably a later invention. The account of his life presented in the Latin "Legenda" claims that he learned the Khazar language while in Chersonesos, in Taurica (today Crimea).
                                After his return to Constantinople, Cyril assumed the role of professor of philosophy at the University while his brother had by this time become a significant player in Byzantine political and administrative affairs, and an abbot of his monastery.


                                Mission to the Slavs

                                Most Important - Great Moravia


                                In 862, the brothers began the work which would give them their historical importance. That year Prince Rastislav of Great Moravia requested that Emperor Michael III and the Patriarch Photius send missionaries to evangelize his Slavic subjects. His motives in doing so were probably more political than religious. Rastislav had become king with the support of the Frankish ruler Louis the German, but subsequently sought to assert his independence from the Franks. It is a common misconception that Cyril and Methodius were the first to bring Christianity to Moravia, but the letter from Rastislav to Michael III states clearly that Rastislav's people "had already rejected paganism and adhere to the Christian law." Rastislav is said to have expelled missionaries of the Roman Church and instead turned to Constantinople for ecclesiastical assistance and, presumably, a degree of political support. The Emperor quickly chose to send Cyril, accompanied by his brother Methodius. The request provided a convenient opportunity to expand Byzantine influence. Their first work seems to have been the training of assistants. In 863, they began the task of translating the Bible into the language now known as Old Church Slavonic and travelled to Great Moravia to promote it. They enjoyed considerable success in this endeavor. However, they came into conflict with German ecclesiastics who opposed their efforts to create a specifically Slavic liturgy.
                                For the purpose of this mission, they devised the Glagolitic alphabet, the first script to be used for Slavonic manuscripts. The Glagolitic alphabet was suited to match the specific features of the Slavic language. Its descendant script was Cyrillic proper.

                                They wrote the first Slavic Civil Code, which was used in Great Moravia. The language derived from Old Church Slavonic, known as Church Slavonic, is still used in liturgy by several Orthodox Churches and also in some Eastern Catholic churches.

                                It is impossible to determine with certainty what portions of the Bible the brothers translated. The New Testament and the Psalms seem to have been the first, followed by other lessons from the Old Testament. The "Translatio" speaks only of a version of the Gospels by Cyril, and the "Vita Methodii" only of the "evangelium Slovenicum", though other liturgical selections may also have been translated.
                                Nor is it known for sure which liturgy, that of Rome or that of Constantinople, they took as a source. They may well have used the Roman alphabet, as suggested by liturgical fragments which adhere closely to the Latin type. This view is confirmed by the "Prague Fragments" and by certain Old Glagolitic liturgical fragments brought from Jerusalem to Kiev and discovered there by Saresnewsky—probably the oldest document for the Slavonic tongue; these adhere closely to the Latin type, as is shown by the words "Mass,""Preface," and the name of one Felicitas. In any case, the circumstances were such that the brothers could hope for no permanent success without obtaining the authorization of Rome.
                                Last edited by wyrdhamster; 01-12-2018, 06:55 AM.


                                My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                                LGBT+ through Ages
                                LGBT+ in CoD games

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