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Awakening Kindred, Devoured Werewolves, and other Hybrids

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  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Building upon Teatime and Satchel, an alternate correspondence of Pillars and the physiology of Beasts could be...

    Ab - Nightmares, Kinship
    Ba - the Horror itself, Lair
    Ka - Satiety
    Ren - Legend/Life, Anathema
    Sheut - Atavisms

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Teatime View Post
    Spirit (Ab) - Where Sheut covers the low, Ab covers the high. It corresponds to uplifting emotions, including empathy, happyness and internal balance. Horrors don't have any - I don't see how they could. Whatever Ab a Beast possesses comes from their human half. Independent Horrors and certain Incarnations could even be resistant to Ab Utterances.
    This seems… inaccurate. The Heart is passion and emotion and the capacity for resonance with things outside the immediate self, but the foundation of the Lion-Headed Decree is not a wholly positive thing and Horrors ultimately hail from a part of the Astral that has always borne an odd connection to spiritual reality.

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  • Mad_Maudlin
    replied
    Teatime -- thanks for this! This gives me a lot of food for thought.

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  • Teatime
    replied
    Originally posted by Mad_Maudlin View Post
    Unfortunately I don't know enough about MTC to figure out how to reconcile the Horror with the concept of Pillars, or I'd have a go at writing this up.
    I have some musings you could use as a springboard, if you ever have the inclination. Pillars are the material both Souls and existence are made out of. Mage/Mummy crossover showed that Pillars map roughly onto Subtle Arcana, while maintaining an important flavor of their own. As a pseudo-Soul, Horrors can be dissected in the following manner:

    Mind (Ba) - As Goetia, Horrors are creatures of Ba. Their very substance and connection to the Primordial Dream are made out of it. I find it hard to determine the full extent of phenomena Ba Utterances could affect. Ba feels like a canvas where all other Pillars feel like paints. It's possible to see Family, Lair, Nightmares and possibly Atavisms as dependent on Ba. Should a Horror be rendered down into its constituent Pillars, odds are Ba would compose most of them. However, there is another contender for the "ruling" Pillar and it's:

    Death (Sheut) - This one could be a bit non-intuitive for Mage players. A Mage with Death couldn't affect a Horror in any sophisticated manner, but a Mummy with the right Sheut Utterance very well might. This is because Sheut corresponds to base, fearsome and destructive aspects of the Soul. In other words, everything a Horror is about. In a crossover scenario Sheut would correspond to Hungers and again, Nightmares and Atavisms. As such, Sheut could possibly be on par with Ba as a "ruling" Pillar.

    Prime (Ka) - Similarly to Sheut, Ka goes beyond being just an analogue to Prime and also covers drive, willpower and intent. While not as vital to the Horror as two other Pillars, it's definitely present, possibly connected to Satiety as the force that lets it affect the world.

    Spirit (Ab) - Where Sheut covers the low, Ab covers the high. It corresponds to uplifting emotions, including empathy, happiness and internal balance. Horrors don't have any - I don't see how they could. Whatever Ab a Beast possesses comes from their human half. Independent Horrors and certain Incarnations could even be resistant to Ab Utterances.

    Fate (Ren) - This is where it gets really interesing. Ren describes the Horror's place in the world, and as such could cover the Life/Legend duality, Kinships, Anathema and even the Myth. And here is the thing - Beasts' susceptibility to random Anathema and the ease with which they create Kinships mean their Ren is very malleable. Either malleable, or outright broken and latching onto whatever piece of narrative it can. The right Ren Utterance could apply Anathema, affect Kinships or rewrite a Horror on a fundamental level. The only defense is to master one's Fate and solidify it as a Myth. The funny thing is - with every Myth comes a title, and that's exactly what Ren is. A title. A Mummy/Beast crossover could ask questions about Beasts' place in the universe (a powerful theme that's barely tapped) and could contrast Mummies' relationship with implacable Cosmic Fate and the chaotic mess that Beasts' lives are.
    Last edited by Teatime; 04-13-2018, 05:01 AM.

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  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    If I wanted to recreate 1e Changeling's Devourers I would just do that instead of involving the Deathless in any way at all, much less in the circuitous fraction-of-a-fraction-of-cases situation required above.

    There's room to mix the Arisen with fetchcraft, but I'd lean more on the two lines' shared language of soul-anatomy instead of jumping to magical cannibalism.

    Oh, I didn't remember those guys. It's a shame, because they are a really cool idea.

    Leave a comment:


  • TyrannicalRabbit
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Um, I was agreeing that the messing with the Rite of Return is a boring idea.

    Also, seriously? No one has any opinion on my Glamour-vamp mummies?
    I don't know enough about Changeling to make a good evaluation of that. *shrugs*

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Also, seriously? No one has any opinion on my Glamour-vamp mummies?
    If I wanted to recreate 1e Changeling's Devourers I would just do that instead of involving the Deathless in any way at all, much less in the circuitous fraction-of-a-fraction-of-cases situation required above.

    There's room to mix the Arisen with fetchcraft, but I'd lean more on the two lines' shared language of soul-anatomy instead of jumping to magical cannibalism.

    Leave a comment:


  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    Um, I was agreeing that the messing with the Rite of Return is a boring idea.

    Also, seriously? No one has any opinion on my Glamour-vamp mummies?
    Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 04-10-2018, 10:07 PM.

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  • TyrannicalRabbit
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Outside of some fanmade Sekhem users, I think the problem is that unlike the other splats, Mummies all came from one empire and spread out later, instead of being worldwide phenomona. That makes ideas outside of "What if the Rite of Return used a [supernatural]'s corpse" or "What if some other splat figured out how to use Sekhem" are harder to justify without extensive fanon. And those two ideas are boring.

    That said, the first one gives me an idea. A lot of weird stuff can happen with that rite that returns a Mummy to another vessel's body. What if the ritemasters accidentally use a Fetch and the rite is completed before the corpse falls apart. Sure, canon answer is probably that it's about as effective as trying to return a Mummy to a crudely made doll. But wouldn't it be more interesting if sentience were the deciding factor instead of materials? The mummy comes back to a body that it instinctively knows is just somehow wrong. Most of the time, the Mummy dies again pretty quickly when the body falls apart as the last of the glamour that sustained it drifts. But, sometimes one of the Relics the cultists have gathered is actually a Token. When the mummy sees it, they instantly hunger for it, grabbing it and instinctively drain its glamour to replace their body's failing reserves.

    Basically, I'm not good with systems, but the point here is a mummy that has a second, even faster time limit than their descent. If they don't get enough Glamour from destroying Tokens or eating the flesh of fae creatures, they will literally fall apart into whatever the Fetch was made of. That glamour is also draining very fast.
    In general I would recommend to people, as earlier stated, to avoid "What if the Rite of Return..." stye stuff. In so far as things outside that singular event in the history of the Empire. Namely because it is very central to the idea of Mummy that the Rite of Return is done and gone forever. That said one area we do have some flexibility is that there are plenty of juicy questions on Mummy metaphysics, the lower realm of Duat, the nature of the Judges and other entities like Anpu,etc to play with. We've seen some of that in the excellent Mutapa chapter in the Dark Eras Companion(which includes some info on Mages using Sekhem btw) and I am among those gleefully looking forward to seeing what the Contagion Chronicles book provides. The biggest "issue" with Mummy and crossover, hybrid wise or otherwise is mostly that Mummy is a very inward focused game. Both in terms of it's setting and in terms of the very mechanics of the Deathless themselves. So I think the challenge is in how to bridge that gap between that focus and the other game lines.

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  • Second Chances
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Outside of some fanmade Sekhem users, I think the problem is that unlike the other splats, Mummies all came from one empire and spread out later, instead of being worldwide phenomona. That makes ideas outside of "What if the Rite of Return used a [supernatural]'s corpse" or "What if some other splat figured out how to use Sekhem" are harder to justify without extensive fanon. And those two ideas are boring.

    That said, the first one gives me an idea. A lot of weird stuff can happen with that rite that returns a Mummy to another vessel's body. What if the ritemasters accidentally use a Fetch and the rite is completed before the corpse falls apart. Sure, canon answer is probably that it's about as effective as trying to return a Mummy to a crudely made doll. But wouldn't it be more interesting if sentience were the deciding factor instead of materials? The mummy comes back to a body that it instinctively knows is just somehow wrong. Most of the time, the Mummy dies again pretty quickly when the body falls apart as the last of the glamour that sustained it drifts. But, sometimes one of the Relics the cultists have gathered is actually a Token. When the mummy sees it, they instantly hunger for it, grabbing it and instinctively drain its glamour to replace their body's failing reserves.

    Basically, I'm not good with systems, but the point here is a mummy that has a second, even faster time limit than their descent. If they don't get enough Glamour from destroying Tokens or eating the flesh of fae creatures, they will literally fall apart into whatever the Fetch was made of. That glamour is also draining very fast.
    The most logical way to probably do a Mummy crossover is to ask "What if x became a Sadikh or Fasad?"

    Leave a comment:


  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    Outside of some fanmade Sekhem users, I think the problem is that unlike the other splats, Mummies all came from one empire and spread out later, instead of being worldwide phenomona. That makes ideas outside of "What if the Rite of Return used a [supernatural]'s corpse" or "What if some other splat figured out how to use Sekhem" are harder to justify without extensive fanon. And those two ideas are boring.

    That said, the first one gives me an idea. A lot of weird stuff can happen with that rite that returns a Mummy to another vessel's body. What if the ritemasters accidentally use a Fetch and the rite is completed before the corpse falls apart. Sure, canon answer is probably that it's about as effective as trying to return a Mummy to a crudely made doll. But wouldn't it be more interesting if sentience were the deciding factor instead of materials? The mummy comes back to a body that it instinctively knows is just somehow wrong. Most of the time, the Mummy dies again pretty quickly when the body falls apart as the last of the glamour that sustained it drifts. But, sometimes one of the Relics the cultists have gathered is actually a Token. When the mummy sees it, they instantly hunger for it, grabbing it and instinctively drain its glamour to replace their body's failing reserves.

    Basically, I'm not good with systems, but the point here is a mummy that has a second, even faster time limit than their descent. If they don't get enough Glamour from destroying Tokens or eating the flesh of fae creatures, they will literally fall apart into whatever the Fetch was made of. That glamour is also draining very fast.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mad_Maudlin
    replied
    For Mummy + Beast, I think the easier hybrid would actually be Shuankhsen + Beast. While the Dark Mother and Ammut the Devourer are clearly intended to be distinct entities in fiction, a curious Begotten might well see enough parallels to think they're the same, and accidentally/on purpose end up enslaved to her. Unfortunately I don't know enough about MTC to figure out how to reconcile the Horror with the concept of Pillars, or I'd have a go at writing this up.

    I really like the idea of a connection between Exploits and Utterances for Mummy + Demon.
    Last edited by Mad_Maudlin; 04-10-2018, 04:04 PM.

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  • Vent0
    replied
    So, since Mummies look like they are the hardest for Hybridizing (due to their metaphysics and background), how would one do:
    Mummy+Vampire
    Mummy+Mage (Reference the Scroll of Ages and A'aru, maybe?)
    Mummy+Werewolf (something like Guayota?)
    Mummy+Changeling
    Mummy+Beast
    Mummy+Demon (Geomantic and Neithian Architecture hacking, Relic for Primum Core, compare/contrast Embeds and Affinities, and Exploits and Utterances?)
    Last edited by Vent0; 04-10-2018, 03:47 PM.

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  • falco1029
    replied
    I have my own take on Tremere from the vamp side in my homebrew thread (in signature). On the less template mutation side i have an update of dead wolves for a bloodline, and two mage legacies, one mage/hedge focused and one beast focused.

    On the ideas of mixing half templates, both are mostly conceptual but I've been pondering a ghoul/lost boy hybrid that's basically "what if the ordo made lost boys", and a dhampir/proximi hybrid that takes both the vamp and mage definition for Dynasty to make something descended from both.

    Basic idea for the former is they run off a "vitae serum" which depletes automatically according to a modified protocol equivalent chart.

    For the latter my idea is still hazy but Im thinking replace arcana with Themes for what blessings you can learn. And there'll be dynasty unique themes for that and for twist use.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mad_Maudlin
    replied
    ...and here's a try at the flip side of things.

    Jabberwocks
    The eyes of flame, the claws that catch...

    Beasts who build strong ties to their local Changeling courts will naturally end up in the Hedge from time to time, dealing with the denizens thereof. It's rare for one of the Children to accrue Goblin Debt--their own Nightmares and Atavisms are usually more than sufficient for their needs, and if not, their fae Kin are better at negotiating contracts. But if a Beast does carelessly rack up Goblin Debt, they don't merely acquire the Hedge Denizen condition; instead, they risk a far stranger transformation.

    Jabberwocks are, strictly speaking, a type of monstrous hobgoblin. They are also, from the perspective of the Begotten, a kind of Beast Rampant, an incomplete Merger made possible by the Wyrd. The Horror is pulled from its Lair and dragged through the Thorns towards its human half, and while it's made of sterner stuff than mortal souls, it still takes damage from the process. The higher the Beast's Satiety when they take the last point of Goblin Debt, the more damage the Horror takes, which ironically means the resulting Jabberwock has a more human-looking mien (though it will always have a tell). At lower Satiety, the Horror remains stronger, and the Jabberwock is more fully transformed. Jabberwocks are not quite the mindless devourers that the Beast Rampant usually becomes, however -- many are quite capable of having an erudite conversation before they gobble you up.

    While Jabberwocks trade Lair for Wyrd, they are capable of making a new nest in the Hedge, represented by at least three free dots in Hollow. This nest automatically takes on the Jabberwock's old Lair Traits, making it a comfortable resting place even for the most alien nightmares. Jabberwocks also tend to warp the Hedge around them, as the Begotten do, automatically applying Minor Lair Traits as Subtle Shifts and Major ones as Paradigm Shifts without having to roll hedgespinning dice. (The number of traits they apply this way is Wyrd/2, rounded down, starting with a Minor.)

    Jabberwocks lose their access to Nightmares, but retain Atavisms regardless of how physically transformed they are. They also have the usual three Goblin Contracts they can activate, using Satiety rather than Glamour, and can buy certain hob-specific Dread Powers as Merits. They can regain a small amount of Satiety from Goblin Fruit, or by bargaining with mortals and Changelings, but in general they still must hunt and feed according to their Hunger and Family - they can even still enter mortal nightmares, by accessing the Dreaming Roads.

    One thing Jabberwocks cannot easily do is find their way home to the Primordial Dream; they can no longer open Primordial Pathways, and their monstrous appearance makes traveling back Ironside a dicey proposition. If a Jabberwock does manage to return to the Astral, its homing sense for its old Lair kicks in, but it still must survive the agonizing process of the Horror ripping itself away from the flesh in order to become a normal Beast again. There is also the danger that the Lair may have been invaded in their absence--by Insatiables, Kindly Ones, Night-gaunts or other critters that haunt the Dream. For many Jabberwocks, it is better to remain in the Hedge and make the best of the situation than risk death trying to return to what they were.

    The Council of Elves in Reykjavik tell of a Jabberwock that's hunted Iceland's Hedge since at least the 19th century, a massive feline creature they call the Yule Cat (Icelandic: Jólakötturinn). Formerly an Eshmaki Nemesis, the Yule Cat was lured into the Hedge by a troll named Gryla and tricked into taking on more Goblin Debt than she could bear. The Yule Cat's Hunger drives her to punish the lazy, though a Frailty keeps her inactive much of the year, hence her name. She tends to emerge ravenous from Gryla's Hollow in late autumn (traditionally, around the time the sheep get a last pre-winter shearing) and gluts herself on the indolent before retreating again shortly after Christmas. Spun wool thread or yarn is a bane for the Yule Cat, and a clever motley of elves and Begotten might be able to use that to control her depredations and perhaps even lead her back to the Primordial Dream.

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