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Awakening Kindred, Devoured Werewolves, and other Hybrids

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Outside of some fanmade Sekhem users, I think the problem is that unlike the other splats, Mummies all came from one empire and spread out later, instead of being worldwide phenomona. That makes ideas outside of "What if the Rite of Return used a [supernatural]'s corpse" or "What if some other splat figured out how to use Sekhem" are harder to justify without extensive fanon. And those two ideas are boring.

    That said, the first one gives me an idea. A lot of weird stuff can happen with that rite that returns a Mummy to another vessel's body. What if the ritemasters accidentally use a Fetch and the rite is completed before the corpse falls apart. Sure, canon answer is probably that it's about as effective as trying to return a Mummy to a crudely made doll. But wouldn't it be more interesting if sentience were the deciding factor instead of materials? The mummy comes back to a body that it instinctively knows is just somehow wrong. Most of the time, the Mummy dies again pretty quickly when the body falls apart as the last of the glamour that sustained it drifts. But, sometimes one of the Relics the cultists have gathered is actually a Token. When the mummy sees it, they instantly hunger for it, grabbing it and instinctively drain its glamour to replace their body's failing reserves.

    Basically, I'm not good with systems, but the point here is a mummy that has a second, even faster time limit than their descent. If they don't get enough Glamour from destroying Tokens or eating the flesh of fae creatures, they will literally fall apart into whatever the Fetch was made of. That glamour is also draining very fast.
    In general I would recommend to people, as earlier stated, to avoid "What if the Rite of Return..." stye stuff. In so far as things outside that singular event in the history of the Empire. Namely because it is very central to the idea of Mummy that the Rite of Return is done and gone forever. That said one area we do have some flexibility is that there are plenty of juicy questions on Mummy metaphysics, the lower realm of Duat, the nature of the Judges and other entities like Anpu,etc to play with. We've seen some of that in the excellent Mutapa chapter in the Dark Eras Companion(which includes some info on Mages using Sekhem btw) and I am among those gleefully looking forward to seeing what the Contagion Chronicles book provides. The biggest "issue" with Mummy and crossover, hybrid wise or otherwise is mostly that Mummy is a very inward focused game. Both in terms of it's setting and in terms of the very mechanics of the Deathless themselves. So I think the challenge is in how to bridge that gap between that focus and the other game lines.


    “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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    • #77
      Um, I was agreeing that the messing with the Rite of Return is a boring idea.

      Also, seriously? No one has any opinion on my Glamour-vamp mummies?
      Last edited by Master Aquatosic; 04-10-2018, 10:07 PM.


      A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
        Also, seriously? No one has any opinion on my Glamour-vamp mummies?
        If I wanted to recreate 1e Changeling's Devourers I would just do that instead of involving the Deathless in any way at all, much less in the circuitous fraction-of-a-fraction-of-cases situation required above.

        There's room to mix the Arisen with fetchcraft, but I'd lean more on the two lines' shared language of soul-anatomy instead of jumping to magical cannibalism.


        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
          Um, I was agreeing that the messing with the Rite of Return is a boring idea.

          Also, seriously? No one has any opinion on my Glamour-vamp mummies?
          I don't know enough about Changeling to make a good evaluation of that. *shrugs*


          “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            If I wanted to recreate 1e Changeling's Devourers I would just do that instead of involving the Deathless in any way at all, much less in the circuitous fraction-of-a-fraction-of-cases situation required above.

            There's room to mix the Arisen with fetchcraft, but I'd lean more on the two lines' shared language of soul-anatomy instead of jumping to magical cannibalism.

            Oh, I didn't remember those guys. It's a shame, because they are a really cool idea.


            A god is just a monster you kneel to. - ArcaneArts, Quoting "Fall of Gods"

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Mad_Maudlin View Post
              Unfortunately I don't know enough about MTC to figure out how to reconcile the Horror with the concept of Pillars, or I'd have a go at writing this up.
              I have some musings you could use as a springboard, if you ever have the inclination. Pillars are the material both Souls and existence are made out of. Mage/Mummy crossover showed that Pillars map roughly onto Subtle Arcana, while maintaining an important flavor of their own. As a pseudo-Soul, Horrors can be dissected in the following manner:

              Mind (Ba) - As Goetia, Horrors are creatures of Ba. Their very substance and connection to the Primordial Dream are made out of it. I find it hard to determine the full extent of phenomena Ba Utterances could affect. Ba feels like a canvas where all other Pillars feel like paints. It's possible to see Family, Lair, Nightmares and possibly Atavisms as dependent on Ba. Should a Horror be rendered down into its constituent Pillars, odds are Ba would compose most of them. However, there is another contender for the "ruling" Pillar and it's:

              Death (Sheut) - This one could be a bit non-intuitive for Mage players. A Mage with Death couldn't affect a Horror in any sophisticated manner, but a Mummy with the right Sheut Utterance very well might. This is because Sheut corresponds to base, fearsome and destructive aspects of the Soul. In other words, everything a Horror is about. In a crossover scenario Sheut would correspond to Hungers and again, Nightmares and Atavisms. As such, Sheut could possibly be on par with Ba as a "ruling" Pillar.

              Prime (Ka) - Similarly to Sheut, Ka goes beyond being just an analogue to Prime and also covers drive, willpower and intent. While not as vital to the Horror as two other Pillars, it's definitely present, possibly connected to Satiety as the force that lets it affect the world.

              Spirit (Ab) - Where Sheut covers the low, Ab covers the high. It corresponds to uplifting emotions, including empathy, happiness and internal balance. Horrors don't have any - I don't see how they could. Whatever Ab a Beast possesses comes from their human half. Independent Horrors and certain Incarnations could even be resistant to Ab Utterances.

              Fate (Ren) - This is where it gets really interesing. Ren describes the Horror's place in the world, and as such could cover the Life/Legend duality, Kinships, Anathema and even the Myth. And here is the thing - Beasts' susceptibility to random Anathema and the ease with which they create Kinships mean their Ren is very malleable. Either malleable, or outright broken and latching onto whatever piece of narrative it can. The right Ren Utterance could apply Anathema, affect Kinships or rewrite a Horror on a fundamental level. The only defense is to master one's Fate and solidify it as a Myth. The funny thing is - with every Myth comes a title, and that's exactly what Ren is. A title. A Mummy/Beast crossover could ask questions about Beasts' place in the universe (a powerful theme that's barely tapped) and could contrast Mummies' relationship with implacable Cosmic Fate and the chaotic mess that Beasts' lives are.
              Last edited by Teatime; 04-13-2018, 05:01 AM.


              Find my Homebrew Fangs of Mara 2ed update Here

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              • #82
                Teatime -- thanks for this! This gives me a lot of food for thought.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Teatime View Post
                  Spirit (Ab) - Where Sheut covers the low, Ab covers the high. It corresponds to uplifting emotions, including empathy, happyness and internal balance. Horrors don't have any - I don't see how they could. Whatever Ab a Beast possesses comes from their human half. Independent Horrors and certain Incarnations could even be resistant to Ab Utterances.
                  This seems… inaccurate. The Heart is passion and emotion and the capacity for resonance with things outside the immediate self, but the foundation of the Lion-Headed Decree is not a wholly positive thing and Horrors ultimately hail from a part of the Astral that has always borne an odd connection to spiritual reality.


                  Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                  Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                  • #84
                    Building upon Teatime and Satchel, an alternate correspondence of Pillars and the physiology of Beasts could be...

                    Ab - Nightmares, Kinship
                    Ba - the Horror itself, Lair
                    Ka - Satiety
                    Ren - Legend/Life, Anathema
                    Sheut - Atavisms


                    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                      Building upon Teatime and Satchel, an alternate correspondence of Pillars and the physiology of Beasts could be...

                      Ab - Nightmares, Kinship
                      Ba - the Horror itself, Lair
                      Ka - Satiety
                      Ren - Legend/Life, Anathema
                      Sheut - Atavisms
                      Chambers outside of the Heart strike me as possibly viable Sheut aspects as well.


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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                        Chambers outside of the Heart strike me as possibly viable Sheut aspects as well.
                        Good call.

                        Creatures of the Primordial Dream in general, not just Beasts/Horrors, sound like they resonate strongly with Ab, Ba, and Sheut, while weakly with Ka and Ren. Something to muse about in Mummy crossovers.


                        MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                          This seems… inaccurate. The Heart is passion and emotion and the capacity for resonance with things outside the immediate self, but the foundation of the Lion-Headed Decree is not a wholly positive thing and Horrors ultimately hail from a part of the Astral that has always borne an odd connection to spiritual reality.
                          Upon review - you're right. There were a few Affinities that colored my memory of the Pillar. Still, I do like the idea of Horrors being somehow incomplete.


                          Find my Homebrew Fangs of Mara 2ed update Here

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                          • #88
                            Mummy and Vampire sounds like an interesting combination. Is there any chance Strix could take over or at least infest a Mummy's body? Because that might make for interesting hijinks. Or have a Shuanksen body-surf into a (torpored) Kindred, who awakens and has the two of them become one new entity in the process?
                            I can see a Sadikh-Beast working out, too.

                            In addition, I'd like to point to @Adrasalieth's post again, because I really like the creative approach there.



                            In other news: I think there are thousands of easy possibilities for Vampire-Uratha hybrids.

                            Just take the weakness to Luna's favored metal, look at how Helios despises Kindred, and have a Hybrid that is weak to Gold rather than Silver.
                            Or have them be so vulnerable to sunlight that they cannot even stand being in the full moon's light, which is essentially reflected sunlight. Or maybe the full moon's light is harmful for them because Luna also hates them?
                            Or make them uncomfortable in sunlight (-3 to all actions, -2 with sunglasses on), but no longer dying from it. They'll have to hunt during the day, too, after all.
                            So we have sun-sensitive, silver-immune but weak-to-gold hybrids. Let's keep going.
                            Now, make a Clan-Auspice chart. Irraka-Nosferatu, Cahalith-Daeva, Elodoth-Mekhet, Rahu-Ventrue and Ithaeur-Gangrel. Starting with access to Auspice Gifts, as well as the Clan's unique Discipline. All other Disciplines/Gifts are considered out-of-Family and cost more. Clan curse applies, but general Kindred Curse doesn't. Keep the Auspice's Hunter's Aspect.
                            Have both Spirits and Strix get a special interest in your kind.
                            Play with other themes: so territorial they need to sleep surrounded by earth from their territory to gain WP from sleeping vs. as long as they sleep surrounded by earth from their territory, they do not have to pay Fuel to wake.
                            Lose giant wolf form, instead gain chiropterean horror form aka Bat out of Hell.
                            Blood Potency and Primal Urge become Primal Blood? Note to self- look for a cooler name.


                            Other approaches include taking themes to cancel them out: Vampires are dead beings, werewolves are incredibly virile. The result would be tame - No Uratha-healing, but also no vampiric downgrading of Lethal to Bashing and Aggravated to Lethal. Reduce vulnerability to silver, but also to fire and sunlight.

                            Take themes and stack them: Kuruth and Frenzy in a single being might leave them utterly unplayable, but for NPCs and playing around with concepts, it's interesting.
                            For a playable version, take Kuruth-Triggers, and apply Frenzy-rules regarding bonuses and actions. While in Frenzy, there is no shapeshifting. While in Frenzy, it is possible to off-set other triggers, to enter Basu-Im. Which would practically be stacking Frenzy bonuses on Gauru.

                            Or, you know, take a Ghoul-born Character that effectively produces their own Vitae and has access to the Ghoul-template, and have them also be a Wolfblooded. Ghouled Uratha would also be crazy.

                            And finally, anyone remember Demona from Gargoyles? At some point, she lost the typical weakness of being turned into a statue at day, and instead transformed into a human being each morning. This sort of half-and-half could also work nicely for Vampire-Hybrids, I feel.
                            Uratha by day, Kindred by night - try explaining that to anyone. Of course, while a simple template swap could work, I think it would be more fun to give and deny them access to certain abilities depending on the day-night cycle while not having them be entirely one or the other at any time.
                            E.g. at day, the character heals at an increased rate, and may spent Essence to hurry it up. They have sharp senses, can smell blood miles against the wind, and can perceive and interact with beings in Twilight. In addition, they have an Auspice and access to relevant Gifts.
                            Come night, the character gains an always active version of the Feign Death merit, and takes bashing from most lethal sources. However, they lose their ability to heal wounds, the ability to perceive and interact with Spirits - which is something the Spirits might just have been waiting for- and their Auspice, as well as access to the relevant Gifts. Instead, though, the character can turn into a bat-human-hybrid or a swarm of bats, and has access to Disciplines as if a Dead Wolf.
                            On [Auspice] moon, however, the character has access to all their abilities. Too bad they spent most of it in a Kuruth/Frenzy mashup.


                            As always, just barely-prepared food for thought.

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                            • #89
                              The connection to Helios for possible Kindred-Uratha hybrid is the most interesting. Maybe they’re the fate of Uratha who manage to piss off the Sun or one of His avatars so much that He decided to curse them personally?


                              MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                              • #90
                                So here's a go...

                                The Betrayed, the Twice-Devoured
                                You think you're hungry?

                                Beasts aren't likely to just wander into Duat by accident, but occasionally one does go a little too far afield exploring -- or goes on purpose after getting too little information from their Kin. Ammut the Devourer sounds an awful lot like the Dark Mother, from some angles, and sometimes a curious Begotten thinks they've found some other of Her faces down in the dark.

                                This is a mistake.

                                The Horror is more resilient than a human soul, and the Betrayed offer it to Ammut while they're still alive -- a rare opportunity for her. So she doesn't gobble it up down to a single remnant, as she did to her Shuankhsen. Instead, she leaves the mangled Horror with a single dot in three Pillars -- Ab, Ba and Sheut -- and returns her new servant to the world to work her will.

                                The Twice-Devoured no longer has their own Life and Legend and cannot pursue Inheritance; the only way they regain willpower is fulfilling Aspirations, and those are often as not decreed by Ammut. Their maximum Satiety is limited to Ka x 2 (minimum 1), though they still feel the negative effects of being Starving or Ravenous. But now, instead of Sateity, they may spend Pillar points to activate powers--Ab for Nightmares, Sheut for Atavisms, Ba for most other abilities. To regain Pillar points, they need to hunt and feed as usual, allocating successes over their Satiety limit to their Pillars. To increase Pillar dots, they have to feed on other Begotten, much like the perpetrators of the Erasure.

                                As still-living beings, the Betrayed aren't bound to the cycles of the Descent and aren't animated by Sekhem, which can make them dangerous enemies of the Arisen. But they can't use abilities like Seal the Flesh, nor can they raise their Lair to more than their Ba x 2, so they are still more fragile than both the Arisen and the Shuankhsen. They also can't use Utterances or Guild Affinities, since they lack any cultural connection to Irem, though Ammut grants them Bane Affinities (and since they have no Integrity equivalent, they can use them all at will). They still disturb the Primordial Dream, and may attract the attention of Heroes -- but only Twice-Devoured with dots in Ren can be victims of Anathema, and the Hero must roll the target's Ren dots as a dice pool to determine if the Anathema "takes."

                                A Twice-Devoured may suspect that if they are able to raise their Pillars sufficiently, they may be able to heal their Horror and free themselves of Ammut's influence. But while they are not subjected to the cycles of the Descent, the heart of their Lair contains a portal to Duat, and Ammut may see fit to drag them back and feast on them again if she suspects they're getting too independent -- or just because she's feeling peckish. While these punishments don't strip the Betrayed back down to three dots as the first time, they usually destroy any progress made in building up Ren and Ka, leaving the Twice-Devoured starving and utterly subjugated to Ammut's will.

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