Higher Templates

[ObrimosG'd]

Since the release of Imperial Mysteries, I have been hungry for a release that details more about the "Higher Templates": Methuselah, Werewolf with +6 abilities, and so on.

After all, will we ever have a book about it? And how do I create a chronicle around these beings? I have a crew that is eager to play with such creatures. And as a storyteller, I would like to give it to them.

[ArcaneArts]

It doesn't make sense for every single thing to have a higher template-for example, it runs counter to Changeling and Mummy to have such. Random Aside, unless you allow the Lone Wolf hack from Forsaken's Chronicler Guide to stand in as such for Primal Urge 6 options, werewolves don't have such. Beasts have their inheritances though, including Incarnation, the closest metaphor to what you're talking about.

A big book on them is unlikely, but each gameline where it becomes pertinent will probably get it around to it inevitably.

[ObrimosG'd]

It doesn't make sense for every single thing to have a higher template-for example, it runs counter to Changeling and Mummy to have such. Random Aside, unless you allow the Lone Wolf hack from Forsaken's Chronicler Guide to stand in as such for Primal Urge 6 options, werewolves don't have such. Beasts have their inheritances though, including Incarnation, the closest metaphor to what you're talking about.

A big book on them is unlikely, but each gameline where it becomes pertinent will probably get it around to it inevitably.

My crew only plays the big three (and demon, sometimes), so it's only in the big three that I'm focusing on in my post. And we disagree that they don't deserve a higher template. After all, Methuselah are quoted a few times, and so on. They exist in the universe, so it's fair that there are ways to have them available.

[ArcaneArts]

Also, Prometheans have a higher template, it's called human.

Shots fired.

[ArcaneArts]

My crew only plays the big three (and demon, sometimes), so it's only in the big three that I'm focusing on in my post. And we disagree that they don't deserve a higher template. After all, Methuselah are quoted a few times, and so on. They exist in the universe, so it's fair that there are ways to have them available.

Note the end line of that one.

Also note the examples I used.

You asked for higher templates without clarification, I answered in the broad sense.

[nofather]

Since the release of Imperial Mysteries, I have been hungry for a release that details more about the "Higher Templates": Methuselah, Werewolf with +6 abilities, and so on.

There's not much. Vampire obviously has Thousand Years of Night, and Changeling has (or had, in first edition) eldritch orders. Potentially Demons have their Hell and Mummies Apotheosis, keep in mind not everything is like an Archmage, which is effectively a separate template.

After all, will we ever have a book about it? And how do I create a chronicle around these beings? I have a crew that is eager to play with such creatures. And as a storyteller, I would like to give it to them.

Usually if the books hint at something of great power coming with age it gives you some hints as to what they can be like, even if there's not a chapter devoted to them, though obviously from there it heavily depends on the gameline. Stories involving Lycaon-Ur of the Lodge of the Field, the Plague Angel of the Morbus, or the First of the Fallen would all be very different.

I don't know of any guaranteed way to get stuff in books, all I'd suggest is support the ones you like, get the word out, and let the developers know what you want out of them.

Random Aside, unless you allow the Lone Wolf hack from Forsaken's Chronicler Guide to stand in as such for Primal Urge 6 options, werewolves don't have such.

This is sort of the reason why people would want a book or chapter on them, because they are clearly something that should be a thing but in the books are just represented by high Attributes. The bodhisattva predator has been appealing since we got the first hints of it in open development.

[21C Hermit]

Let’s see, for conceptually “advanced” templates with zero regard to power levels: Elder vampires (vampire), boddhisattva werewolves (werewolf), archmage (mage), Redeemed (Promethean), True Fae (changeling), achieving Catharsis/Catabasis (Bound), attaining Apotheosis (Arisen), completing the Cipher (demon), attaining the Inheritances (Beast).

[Tessie]

Thousand Years of Night is already about playing elder vampires. Seems we'll never get Methuselah (as in vampire+ rather than just old vampire) as a playable option. There's at least one homebrew document found in the homebrew resources thread in the VTR forum, if you don't care that it's fan made.

[LostLight]

Let’s see, for conceptually “advanced” templates with zero regard to power levels: Elder vampires (vampire), boddhisattva werewolves (werewolf), archmage (mage), Redeemed (Promethean), True Fae (changeling), achieving Catharsis/Catabasis (Bound), attaining Apotheosis (Arisen), completing the Cipher (demon), attaining the Inheritances (Beast).

Also, I've always considered Hunters as being an "advanced mortal template"

[21C Hermit]

Also, I've always considered Hunters as being an "advanced mortal template"

Hmm, I thought hunters as a subset of humans.



More to the topic at hand; we should recall that “templates” aren’t a hard category, at least not any more, according to what the writers said. Defining specific “advanced” templates will be much hazy - we already have elder vampires as just, well, elder vampires (not necessarily something special like Methuselahs), and boddhisattva werewolves as just werewolves with a few more tricks up their sleeves (at least with the non-official example of Lycaon-Ur, which is all we’ve got at the moment). Only archmages are different enough from regular mages to constitute a different template, and as of 2E even that’s up to debate.

Of course, all I said above are not mutually exclusive with getting a possible “game of the gods” or “Ascension War” crossover supplement in the future. It’s just that it’s very unlikely we’ll see something official in that vein.

[Iceblade44]

To add to what others have said. Not every splat has an upgrade. And even when they do it's not necessarily an upgrade in the traditional sense. Like Apotheosis Mummies or Redeemed Promethean where they lost a majority of there powers. That said even in that state it's not like they don't have cool new stuff. Like Apotheosis Mummies regain the ability to to manipulate Sekhem thus they can now build Relics. Just consider that for a minute, then wonder what would stop a Apotheosis Tef-Aabi from creating a new city of Pillars, what would stop a Apotheosis Su-menent from cracking the Rite of Return? Think crazy stuff like that.

(Personally I think the Redeemed would be similar in that regard if they were to get into Alchemy, that is good guy alchemy. Not vitrol hunting alchemy. The problems with that would be A) we haven't gotten the rules for playable Alchemists yet and B) Redeemed being better at it is just my headcanon. When the rules do come around and theirs no benifet for them then I'd have to homebrew some. This is just something I wish was true in the cases of when in campaigns a Prommi achieves New Dawn but you still want them to be relevant and continue playing. I'd think that would be the best way to do it.)

Anyway, in other splats your upgrades while would have some benifits won't be that big of a push. Like take Cipher Demons, outside of unique Interlocks not much different. Same with Elder vampires. They have more serious names and probably unique Devotions they won't be that much of an upgrade, the biggest upgrade you could get is by creating your own bloodline. You would be still powerful characters, just it's stuff that you achieve and create through playing naturally. Not necessarily by going up a tier.

You know thinking about this, I wonder what will be the differenves between 2e Archmages and 1e. If I remember right but didn't Dave say there was stuff in Imperial Mysteries he disliked? I wonder how achieving Ascension will work now.

[nofather]

and boddhisattva werewolves as just werewolves with a few more tricks up their sleeves (at least with the non-official example of Lycaon-Ur, which is all we’ve got at the moment).

Harmony anchored at 5 is a bit more than a trick, it changes the game drastically. And the mentions of them in the books suggest they are more on the cusp of a different change, such as to spirit or Pangaean.

[Iceblade44]

Harmony anchored at 5 is a bit more than a trick, it changes the game drastically. And the mentions of them in the books suggest they are more on the cusp of a different change, such as to spirit or Pangaean.

Really? You know that reminds me of the couple of mentions in 1000YoN and the vampire core where they mention Elders being in a chrysalis or in the process of changing into something far from human but it never mentions what.

[21C Hermit]

Harmony anchored at 5 is a bit more than a trick, it changes the game drastically. And the mentions of them in the books suggest they are more on the cusp of a different change, such as to spirit or Pangaean.

Oh yeah, completely forgot about Unmarred Harmony (I think that was the name?) Good call.

[Dataweaver]

Personally I think the Redeemed would be similar in that regard if they were to get into Alchemy, that is good guy alchemy. Not vitrol hunting alchemy. The problems with that would be A) we haven't gotten the rules for playable Alchemists yet and B) Redeemed being better at it is just my headcanon. When the rules do come around and theirs no benifet for them then I'd have to homebrew some. This is just something I wish was true in the cases of when in campaigns a Prommi achieves New Dawn but you still want them to be relevant and continue playing. I'd think that would be the best way to do it.

The official rules for the Redeemed already allow for the option of them remaining relevant and continuing in play: just choose the option where they retain their memories of their former existence. Heck, if they completed all ten Refinements and retain their memories of their previous existence, they even get to keep a whole Alembic. There are Alchemists that would literally kill for that.