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How much has the Lore changed from 1E to 2E?

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  • How much has the Lore changed from 1E to 2E?

    Hello everyone!

    I'm coming back to nWoD (CofD now, I suppose) for the first time since Geist 1E was released. I was a huge fan of 1E's lore, and I'm curious just how compatible it is with 2E. I know the mechanics have changed quite a bit, and I'm excited to play with the 2E mechanics, but I haven't seen anything definitive on just how much has changed, lore wise, between the two editions.

    To be more specific, I know some things have remained the same, such as Prince Vidal of New Orleans and Bishop Solomon Birch of Chicago having their stories from 1E advanced in 2E in Secrets of the Covenants, but other things have been reworked or changed. So, just how useful are the clan and covenant books now? What about the Lore in supplements of other lines, like The Pure in WtF, the Order books in Mage, or the Promethean supplements?

    I'm just curious how much I should use my 1E books to mine for background lore without something contradicting it elsewhere in 2E. I know this is subjective, as I can do what I want as the ST, but I like keeping things consistent. 😅

    Anyways, thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Jade-Wrought Sunfire; 10-14-2018, 11:41 AM.

  • #2
    Vampire: The main change in the Lore are the Stryx. In 1st Edition, they were present in ancient Rome and exterminated the Julii Clan. After that, they disappeared, and didn't come back until recently. In new lore they never disappeared and always were a menace to vampires. Other minor Lore changes are from the covenants (some of them, from later books of 1st edition): The Lancea et Sanctum (not Lancea Sanctum), the Circle of the Crone was founded in18th century, Carthian Movement was born during French Revolution and Invictus wasn't born from ancient Camarilla, but was funded in Germany (The Holy Roman Empire) during Middle Ages (this from late 1st edition).

    Werewolf: The main change is in Pangea. It was a frontier realm between Flesh and Spirit, with elements of both. Father/Mother Wolf was the greatest Pangean hunter, who mated with Luna (a Spirit) and so the werewolves were born (not nescesarilly as the werewolf mythos say). When he destroyed Pangea at his death, Pangea became the Gauntlet. The current (known) descendants of Pangeans are:the Uratha, the Baal-Hadad (werebulls), the Azlu and the Beshilu. The Fall of Pangea was around 5000 BCE.

    Mage: The Orders don't have an Atlantean origin. With the conquests of Alexander, Greek, Persian, Indi and Egyptian mages come together and stablished four magical phylosophies (Darshanas), which later would became the Orders. The Seers are mainly an split of the Darshana who later would be the Silver Laddre. During Middle Ages, the Mysterium was split in two different Orders. Also during Middle Ages, the Tremer were a Diamond Order (this las one, hasn't been still published, but it's been told by the developer).

    LAND OF THE DAMNED: SPAIN (Spanish): Land of the Damned: Spain, Kingdoms of Blood: Spain; Cities of the Damned: Barcelona, Valencia, Carthian Constitution (1812), Three Arrows Pact:

    OTHERS (Spanish): Demon: The Redemption, Bloodlines: The Forgotten


    • #3
      My 2 cents ...

      Taken as a whole, the shift between 1st and 2nd Edition is less about changing or overwriting setting details, and more about refocusing. While I am certain there are specific instances where something in the setting has been out and out changed, in most cases the 2nd Edition developers have just condensed the sprawling amount of details from across multiple books into something more thematically consistent.

      If you have a solid collection of 1st Edition "Blue Book" material, you should be able to use most of it lore and setting wise. the mechanics may need some work, especially books like Second Sight, which were early releases and the NWod/CofD game mechanics and design philosophy have evolved since then. You might also have books like Inferno, which some of my favorite 1st Edition lore, but has game mechanics that hinge on part of the system (7 Virtues/7 Vice) that has been considerably altered in 2nd Edition.

      For the Game Line books, most of your lore material should still work, even if some of the lines operate much differently now when it comes to mechanics and themes.

      Curios, Relics, and Tomes - A collection of Relics (Cursed and Otherwise)
      The Horror Lab - A collection of Beasts, Monsters and less definable things.
      Strange Places - A collection of Dark, Mysterious, and Wondrous Locations
      Twilight Menagerie - A collection of Ephemeral Entities


      • #4
        The only real things that stand out to me, honestly, are the Predatory Aura replacing the more overtly violent Predator's Taint (meaning that poor lick in the coffin Frances freaked out and killed no longer fits so easily), and Mage 2e's refocusing of the Supernal Realms not as an impossibly distant and more perfected world, but as the conceptualization of truth and living symbols layered over the phenomenal world, being what is perceived through the Mage Sight. Everything else I can think of is mostly details (Mage 2e slightly redefines a couple of lexical terms) or added context that can stand beside first edition lore without contradicting it (the existence of Hedge ghosts and the Arcadian Huntsmen), plus maybe some deeper cuts from supplement books (a 2e supplement reimagines the dhampir from the ground up, but it's not like they were all over 1e).

        Books that have been specifically called out for being ideally compatible with the spirit of the 2e cores include the Vampire clanbooks and the Mage order books, and the 2e books do contain many other shout-outs and references to 1e material, like the drug Solace and the Men in Black from Summoners.


        • #5
          The thing about the Mysterium having originally been two rival Orders is from 1e; it's continuity between editions, not a change. The Tremere... Are a bit fuzzier. They were "allies" of the Diamond during the middle ages according to 1e, so while them now explicitly being a lost Order is new to 2e, it doesn't contradict anything.

          Anyways, the major change to faction backstories in Mage 2e is the Banishers, who now definitely aren't a lost Atlantean Order.

          So in 1e, the Timori Banishers are a lost Order and the Tremere are a Legacy. In 2e, the opposite is true.

          Dave Brookshaw


          • #6
            Thanks for the answers! I suppose there's no real clear-cut answer to the question beyond "1E Lore is free game unless 2E explicitly contradicts it". I'll probably ignore some books that have mechanics heavily tied to them (Second Sight, Inferno, Book of Spirits) and then just parse what can be be used in the 1E books with 2E sources. If anyone has any other specific examples of key differences between 1E and 2E Lore, though, I'd love to know what they are. Thanks again!


            • #7
              Originally posted by Uxas View Post
              Invictus wasn't born from ancient Camarilla, but was funded in Germany (The Holy Roman Empire) during Middle Ages (this from late 1st edition).
              no I think its still from the Camarilla, with Secrets of the Covenants still confirming that the Invictus came from the Legio Mortumm that rebelled against the Camarilla during the sack of Rome, as it was stated in the Fall of the Camarilla book.

              also something I've been wondering since I'm not a backer have the five horsemen been exercised from geist now that Thresholds aren't a thing?



              • #8
                Originally posted by Iceblade44 View Post
                also something I've been wondering since I'm not a backer have the five horsemen been exercised from geist now that Thresholds aren't a thing?
                They're not mentioned in the 2e Geist core. That's not necessarily the same as saying they've been excised – Belial's Brood is not in the 2e Vampire core, but the Pledge to the Worthless One in Secrets of the Covenants seems at least a nod that the idea is still out there. And the addition of the Keys of Disease and of Chance provide the presence of at least one key resonant with each of the old Thresholds.

                They've certainly been deemphasized, but well, for how up front they were in the splats in Geist 1e, there wasn't actually much there written about them. They got a more substantial presentation in a Vampire book than in the Geist core, really.


                • #9
                  The Changeling 1e books are all pretty much still relevant lore-wise, except for one major thing, which is that the Wyrd is now more formally a force of reciprocity, not a force of narrative logic. Also the prevalence of the seasonal courts is de-emphasized some. They're still the default example because they're common, but they are one example of many.

                  (Edit: sorry for the thread necromancy, I'm just catching up on stuff and didn't notice how long ago this was posted. XD)

                  Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
                  Changeling: The Lost developer
                  Mage: The Awakening developer