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Hopepunk and the Chronicles of Darkness

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
    Is no one Talking about Princess: the Hopeful?

    It literally has Hope in its name.
    It is also fanon. Fanon I enjoy! But fanon, which does not reflect on the shared subject matter that sets the themes and moods of the franchise we're working with. It doesn't reflect on the subject at work here.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
      Christ in a gimp suit at a pedobear rave, hopepunk?

      I'm not saying punk is innately hopeful, but what do you think all the thrashing against the system is for? The redundancy is irksome.
      Point there, but I get the sense that a lot of punk media seems to be under the impression that any idealism at all is bad. I'm thinking Shadowrun at its worst, where it's expected that you're essentially fine-tuning the system that drove you to become a criminal mercenary in the first place. Which isn't really punk, but then again, it thinks it is, no matter how funny the episode of Terrible Writing Advice mocking it was.

      From what I can tell, Hopepunk is a genre that tells you that cynical attitude is actually part of the system; compassion is in itself an act of rebellion against fascism, because it threatens to dissolve artificial enmity and cause people to focus on the actual source of problems. So, more focus on movement building, I'd say - and actively chewing out bits of the punk movement for being self-sabotaging edgelords.


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      • #33
        Re-reading it, I agree with Leliel. I still can't say I like the article, but it's more thought out and coherent that I gave it credit for originally.


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        • #34
          Originally posted by Leliel View Post

          Point there, but I get the sense that a lot of punk media seems to be under the impression that any idealism at all is bad. I'm thinking Shadowrun at its worst, where it's expected that you're essentially fine-tuning the system that drove you to become a criminal mercenary in the first place. Which isn't really punk, but then again, it thinks it is, no matter how funny the episode of Terrible Writing Advice mocking it was.

          From what I can tell, Hopepunk is a genre that tells you that cynical attitude is actually part of the system; compassion is in itself an act of rebellion against fascism, because it threatens to dissolve artificial enmity and cause people to focus on the actual source of problems. So, more focus on movement building, I'd say - and actively chewing out bits of the punk movement for being self-sabotaging edgelords.
          Oh sure, Punk tends to be Ragnarok-ian in nature(done not because you expect to win, but because it's right), but the emphasis on cynicism stems from keeping an eye on the full picture and acknowledging the reality of the situation-it's doesn't hew towards the Idealism end of the spectrum between the two. Trying to reject the cynicism as part of the system is as damaging as embracing it all too much. But Punk does keep an emphasis on community, on keeping yours and getting more people on board, and the idealism in punk is still present-if not in the hope of success, then still in the value of doing it because it's right regardless, which honestly makes it a better train of thought.

          Like anything else, aspects of punk get overblown and caricatured, and those reads are useless for those who identify as such and move around within it-but hopepunk isn't a course correction, it's a family friendly way to sell the subculture, a product of a product that sanded down a deep fury towards a fucked world and the courage to break that shit where it stands. It's very...Disney (and I like me some Disney, mind).

          Punk, of course, needs to evolve and grow, and inevitably will since it's really a subculture born of time. But I'm wary of anything that softens the edge. Punk bleeds, and if a version of that doesn't communicate that, then it's arguably missing the point as badly as thinking all it is blood.

          EDIT: And mind you, that's not say you can't have a "G-Rated" Punk that emphasizes those things, per se-Friendzlandia from Misspent Youth is punk as fuck, and in that you play Stuffed Animals and Pet Animals, but the narrative of group as they try to escape and subvert ConHugeCo is fierce and sharp as fuck, and the narrative still bleeds even if not a drop of the stuff falls in the story itself.

          Friendzlandia is a great example of why Punk doesn't need Hopepunk, what I'm saying, you should buy Misspent Youth.
          Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-10-2019, 01:09 PM.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Leliel View Post

            From what I can tell, Hopepunk is a genre that tells you that cynical attitude is actually part of the system; compassion is in itself an act of rebellion against fascism, because it threatens to dissolve artificial enmity and cause people to focus on the actual source of problems. So, more focus on movement building, I'd say - and actively chewing out bits of the punk movement for being self-sabotaging edgelords.
            I rarely agree with ArcaneArts , but in this case I might, to an extent. I think, if you take away the cynicism (aka, in my eyes, the criticism and mocking of "high ideals", even your own and also the recognition of the hard realities of the world) and go full throttle on ideology/idealism and "movement building", it ceases to be punk and becomes something else.


            If nothing worked, then let's think!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by PMárk View Post

              I rarely agree with ArcaneArts , but in this case I might, to an extent. I think, if you take away the cynicism (aka, in my eyes, the criticism and mocking of "high ideals", even your own and also the recognition of the hard realities of the world) and go full throttle on ideology/idealism and "movement building", it ceases to be punk and becomes something else.
              We actually have agreed a fair amount, it just hasn't been a topic of conversation.


              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                We actually have agreed a fair amount, it just hasn't been a topic of conversation.
                Ah, okay then, I'm glad to hear that!

                My impression was that we tended to be of differing oppinion on several arguments over the pst few years (which is okay), but it's entirely possible that the parts where we agree just didn't came up in direct conversation and we both just clicked a like and such.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                • #38
                  Both Hope and the need to categorize things were put there by the Maker for a Reason. They are essential to our nature as created beings. Horror is the active absence of the Hope we of mankind should have in our souls and spirits. Everything you feel is there for a reason. So I would ask what is your Reason for feeling Horror, eh? Human beings are more than flesh and bone, soul and mind. We are spirit.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Extant Reality View Post
                    Both Hope and the need to categorize things were put there by the Maker for a Reason. They are essential to our nature as created beings. Horror is the active absence of the Hope we of mankind should have in our souls and spirits. Everything you feel is there for a reason. So I would ask what is your Reason for feeling Horror, eh? Human beings are more than flesh and bone, soul and mind. We are spirit.
                    That seems to be assuming a lot there. I mean, whatever the author's beliefs, the original article has a pretty atheistic slant to it (or maybe something closer to a very hard existential religiosity).

                    Also, I'm not sure why you think horror is the active absence of hope, that doesn't seem right.

                    Also also, soul and spirit are synonyms (kinda). It's not clear what distinction you're trying to make.


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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Michael View Post

                      That seems to be assuming a lot there. I mean, whatever the author's beliefs, the original article has a pretty atheistic slant to it (or maybe something closer to a very hard existential religiosity).

                      Also, I'm not sure why you think horror is the active absence of hope, that doesn't seem right.

                      Also also, soul and spirit are synonyms (kinda). It's not clear what distinction you're trying to make.
                      What he said. Hope, to me, is essential to horror; if there is no hope, even a slight and transient one, why are you even bothering trying to be safe?

                      It's why Outlast 2 didn't get a lot of critical acclaim. Without even hope of understanding what's going on, "because it's scary" just doesn't work.


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