Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Stacking Minor Templates

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Stacking Minor Templates

    So, with the introduction of minor templates and the ability to make Wolf-Blooded Mage, Proximi Kindred, Fae-Touched Beast or Changeling Ghouls, I was curious what your experiences are: do those see a lot of game time? What do you consider the most interesting combinations, fluff-wise or mechanically?
    Wolf-Blooded Ghouls is something I often find myself liking, due to the subdued "Fang and Fur" theme going on. But I'd be also really interested in a Stigmatic Herald, because that'd be combining two worlds that really don't go well with each other, so there's plenty of conflict, but also a chance for a Brood/Beast to find some common ground with a Ring/Demon.


  • #2
    Originally posted by Wormwood View Post
    So, with the introduction ...
    Where's that?


    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Michael View Post
      Where's that?
      Oh, it's nothing new. I suppose I phrased that poorly. We have rules for minor templates in every 2ed core-book: Ghouls in Vampire, Wolf-Blooded in Werewolf, Proximi in Mage, Alchemists in Promethean, Fae-Touched in Changeling, Stigmatics in Demon and Heralds in Beast. I might've missed some there, though. I think Mummy had something Herald-like, but it's in a weird spot, and 2ed isn't out yet.

      Comment


      • #4
        Just to note, some don't combine well. Ghoul doesn't combine with many, Wolf-blooded combines with almost everything. Verdict is out on Stigmatics and Proximi.


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

        Comment


        • #5
          I would also hazard that you can't be a Stigmatic Herald.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes had an appropriately horrifying Proximi Hero, and I would be interested to see other demi splat Heroes. In particular I think a Lost Boy (from Hurt Locker) Hero could make for a nasty surprise.

            Comment


            • #7
              So officially only Wolf-Blooded survives contact with another template. There have been arguments over Stigmatic as Vent0 has pointed out. The Proximi Hero... irks me a bit, actually, because it doesn't follow the modern Proximi rules in terms of their curse since it doesn't give a paradox effect (but then again their curse if triggered is pretty devastating, so it's somewhat understandable).

              My own take on it is, if it works for your game, let it roll, but be prepared for the consequences. Wolf-Blooded works with other templates because it provides a limited number of possible benefits (RAW you can only take Extra Tell once, though the flavor does imply multiple purchases; even then, however, there are only so many Tells to take) and because the benefits it grants aren't the powers of the template, by and large. This is part of why Ghoul and Fae-Touched don't work well with others - they can create really abusive combinations fairly easily (not that you can't possibly break everything else with wolf-blooded - for one example, note that the Long Fingers tell gives you a benefit to ANY ritual, not just Rites, meaning a Blood Sorcerer, Mage or an Obascus Initiate Beast could use that benefit, and it doesn't count against a Mage's yantra slots - AND they could still potentially retain Rites they learned if they have the right tells for them; however, those are fairly minor perks compared to the potential to learn multiple powers from another splat and stack them with a full template). If a ghoul can maintain a blood supply, they can get physical Disciplines to five and sit on a bonus of five to Strength and Stamina, all before other powers (either making Life mages REALLY happy or saving a spell control slot or two). A Fae Touched needs a Changeling to teach them Contracts, but once they get those contracts they can use them alongside other magics if crossover is allowed, which is unpredictable.

              Allowing someone to have BOTH access to Disciplines through ghouling and access to Contracts as a Fae-touched? Potential nightmare. Combining THAT with another splat? Good luck.

              Stigmatics are weird because they add in supernatural merits. Not super groundshattering in general, but again, the potential for weird breaking points is there. Take Dark Passenger. You can ask three questions, get two response, but one is a lie. Flavorful and interesting, but not as useful in general as other powers. However, now combine that with lie detection of some sort - say Prime 1 (which any mage can get easily) and Pierce Deception. Oh, look - you know which one is the lie. Depending on what you asked, you may even be able to use the fact that it's a lie to understand the truth (or you could just add the reach and get a hint anyways). Then, add in other Supernatural powers like Omen Sensitivity or Telepathy 3 and get more information. And if you stacked on Ghoul and learned Auspex? Get some more free questions to build even more information up. Now, if you ONLY limited the Stigmatic to the Sense God-Machine, the three dots in psychic merits (which is usually just a three dot merit, since there's only a few one dots to pair with two dots), and the uncontrollable visions, it's not likely to break the game TOO much (especially when mages are involved). But it can create broken scenarios if you go too far. Same with Herald - not the most powerful template, but access to Birthright and Advanced Merits can lead to weird interactions.

              Also, watch to make sure that template stacking doesn't somehow negate the weaknesses of a supernatural type. It's harder to do with the Lesser Templates than the greaters (sunlight damage is far less threatening if you regenerate like a werewolf or use the Forces 4 attainment to just ignore the environment), but it can happen, so watch out. The biggest issue will be Mage, since any powers gained that AREN'T through Arcanum are going to be Paradox-free and, as mentioned, won't take up spell-control. The worst offenders in this regard would be Ghoul, Fae Touched, and Offspring, though if you count Dhampir they can also really muck things up for you (especially with some... less-than-careful wording in the Secrets of the Covenants book and Carthian Law...)

              One special note: Proximi seem like they should be a bigger worry, but aren't as bad as they seem. Like Wolf-Blooded, they have a limited set of powers to draw from, and even with one free reach they can't get super powerful spells going without risking Paradox (if they have one free reach, they can spend five hours ritual casting a weak spell that actually manages to last longer than it took to cast, or they can instant cast a weak spell at a small number of targets, and without Yantra, they can't boost too high). Now, some homebrew merits I've seen would remove that weakness from them, so if you're using those Proximi can make things super messy, but as is, they aren't as worrying (though you still should think twice before allowing stacking).

              All that said, remember - if you want to do it in your game and no one else is saying no, and it's fun, go for it.

              Comment


              • #8
                It also depends on how far a thing is taken. I certainly wouldn't allow a Proximi Vampire or an Offspring Kindred. A Stigmatic Vampire however, is less of an issue.

                Lore also helps with this; no Stigmatic Heroes, Mage Dhampir or Faetouched Bound. Because either the power sources conflict (G-M does not work well with the Dream) or because the elements of the sources have already been taken by one of the templates (blood/fate/soul already taken).


                Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by EndlessKng View Post
                  This is part of why Ghoul and Fae-Touched don't work well with others - they can create really abusive combinations fairly easily[…]. If a ghoul can maintain a blood supply, they can get physical Disciplines to five and sit on a bonus of five to Strength and Stamina, all before other powers (either making Life mages REALLY happy or saving a spell control slot or two). A Fae Touched needs a Changeling to teach them Contracts, but once they get those contracts they can use them alongside other magics if crossover is allowed, which is unpredictable.

                  Allowing someone to have BOTH access to Disciplines through ghouling and access to Contracts as a Fae-touched? Potential nightmare. Combining THAT with another splat? Good luck.
                  A ghoul has a Vitae pool equal to their unmodified Stamina, needs a regnant to process blood into Vitae, and needs to put at least some of that Vitae toward upkeep in addition to dealing with the complications of probable blood addiction.

                  A fae-touched cannot use Loopholes for any of the Contracts they know and, by the implication of Glamour Fasting being a Merit they can learn, are susceptible to the same basic effects of Glamour deprivation as changelings are, i.e. they need Glamour to not starve to death and they need Glamour for every single Contract they use. In addition, every single fae-touched at least starts out connected to a changeling and addicted to being in the Hedge, only one of which goes away (and the one that doesn't go away also means the character has and re-procs the Madness Condition on a regular basis).

                  A character with both of these sets of drawbacks is a thinly-stretched wreck almost by definition even without the stresses of a full-size template.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Not to mention probably extremely bound to their vampire regnant (more than ghouls usually are). I mean, the likeliest reason for someone being both a ghoul and fae-touched is because a vampire found a fae-touched and wanted to bind them to themselves in order to use them.
                    Last edited by Tessie; 03-15-2019, 07:51 AM.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks for the feedback!
                      I think this is more of a fun thought experiment, although I really like the idea of a barely-coherent Fae-Touched Ghoul used by an exploitative Kindred for their unique talents as a plot device. Could be a fun PC in a small-scale game, too.

                      Due to running some Promethean, I am planning on (ab)using Alchemists quite a bit. Throwing in a Wolf-Blooded or Fae-Touched one is bound to not only leave the player characters out of the loop for a bit.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X