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  • Originally posted by Penta View Post
    This sounds like something Mages should be able to interact with, possibly with some combination of Prime, Time and Fate, as Sekhem carries Resonance, history and curses.
    Originally posted by Dark Eras Companion, Princes of the Conquered Lands, "Crossover in the Conquered Land: Mana and Pillars"
    The Arisen believe Sekhem, and the Pillars of its divided power, are the stuff of Creation.
    Originally posted by Dark Eras, To The Strongest, Sidebar: "Those Who Cross Over"
    In contemporary terms, Sekhem is not “Supernal,” but the stuff of existence as it actually manifests. Awakened magic interacts with it like a smith holding tongs, while the Predynastic ancients [of Irem] preferred to grab this molten stuff with the spiritual equivalent of their bare hands.
    Mages attempting to leverage Pillar points have to store them in places and objects whose Resonance matches the theme of the Pillar and create artificial Vestiges in doing so.


    Resident Lore-Hound
    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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    • Good points. It would be nice if this, or a summary of it, was consolidated in one place…


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      • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
        Mages attempting to leverage Pillar points have to store them in places and objects whose Resonance matches the theme of the Pillar and create artificial Vestiges in doing so.
        So maybe a Mage attempting to leverage Sekhem dots (for example after canibalizing relics), would also have to store them, creating an artificial Relic? Sounds quite dangerous and/or impossible.

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        • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
          Good points. It would be nice if this, or a summary of it, was consolidated in one place…
          Particularly in light of the fact that the first section of the book, the general FAQ, came right out and said that it was reprinting information from existing books for ease of reference. To then not do so in the rest of the book is an…interesting…design choice.

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          • Originally posted by Exploding Frogs View Post

            Particularly in light of the fact that the first section of the book, the general FAQ, came right out and said that it was reprinting information from existing books for ease of reference. To then not do so in the rest of the book is an…interesting…design choice.
            Not sure if they will do anything about that at this stage, but it seems worth pointing that out in an errata form.

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            • Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
              the explict death of Supernal cosmological supremacy.
              What did they mean by this.

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              • Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
                the explict death of Supernal cosmological supremacy while making them great for mixed groups (including what Uratha rites and Sin-Eater necromancy look like)
                Joining the question of poster above - what does it mean? I am very interested in crossover material, running various crossovers with Mage all the time, but I am really not interested in material subverting or scrapping Mage cosmology. This could be a deal breaker for me to pass on the book.

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                • Originally posted by Rathford View Post

                  What did they mean by this.
                  The book doesn't call out people that try to have those arguments or anything but it has a small paragraph that contextualizes the place of the Supernal and the symbols of it relative to other realms in and around the CofD.


                  Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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                  • Clarifying a little bit more:

                    The Supernal Cosmological Supremacy is a (incorrect) perspective that used to plague the forums basically posited that everything was under the purview of the Awakened and that all things could be correlated to their cosmological mapping of the universe. It was a big enough problem that it affected the writing of Promethean and Chnageling and was a big pain in the ass for anyone who was there.

                    It doesn't really happen now, since Second Edition made it very clear that it's entire point was that the universe is filled with non-supernal things and mages hunter them down for occult power, and the Contagion PG by thoroughly drawing the limits of the supernal regarding other gamelines.

                    EDIT: Clarifying a little more: Supernal Cosmological Supremacy led to some dumb ideas that Vampire was the Stygia game and Werewolf was the Primal Wild game, so Promethean must be the Aether game, because it had angels, the "IS CHANGELING ARCADIA MAGE ARCADIA" kept long legs because of this stance, and people were bending themselves in knots trying to figure out how Hunter was the Pandemonium game, with a lot of really stupid ideas for how it would be.

                    Meanwhile, there was also this "Goku can beat everybody up" sort of frain in the threads about how mages basically had all power over every other monster's power and could just stop them doing their thing by using Death or Fatge or Spirit, whatever.

                    If you're looking at this while squinting and going huh, that's because this was perpetuated by people who didn't really understand Mage, it's world, or how magic works, which is half their fault and half Mage First Edition didn't always explain itself in the best way.
                    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 07-06-2021, 06:30 PM.


                    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Feminine pronouns, please.

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                    • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                      Clarifying a little bit more:

                      The Supernal Cosmological Supremacy is a (incorrect) perspective that used to plague the forums basically posited that everything was under the purview of the Awakened and that all things could be correlated to their cosmological mapping of the universe. It was a big enough problem that it affected the writing of Promethean and Chnageling and was a big pain in the ass for anyone who was there.

                      It doesn't really happen now, since Second Edition made it very clear that it's entire point was that the universe is filled with non-supernal things and mages hunter them down for occult power, and the Contagion PG by thoroughly drawing the limits of the supernal regarding other gamelines.
                      Aha, got it, thanks. Yeah, that doesn't bother me a lot, and it was explicitly stated in Second Edition what not all weirdness has a source in Supernal. Does it mean that some Fallen (crossover) things are cosmological blanks for the Awakened; that there is no Supernal Symbols describing them as part of Tapesty? Or it just means that Supernal Symbols can't describe them fully in context of Supernal? Or neither?

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                      • Originally posted by Dark Archon View Post
                        Aha, got it, thanks. Yeah, that doesn't bother me a lot, and it was explicitly stated in Second Edition what not all weirdness has a source in Supernal. Does it mean that some Fallen (crossover) things are cosmological blanks for the Awakened; that there is no Supernal Symbols describing them as part of Tapesty? Or it just means that Supernal Symbols can't describe them fully in context of Supernal? Or neither?
                        It means the Fallen World has a lot more elements at play in it than Supernal Light and Fallen Shadows. THe world is as much occult matrices and Sekhem and the Wyrd and Vitae as it is the Supernal, Abyssal, and Astral, and these things aren't connected (unless, of course, they somehow are, but that's a table matter).

                        THe Supernal is articulation and vocabulary. The Fallen World has things it doesn't yet have words for. EDIT: and heading off possible questions, the Abyss is a thing/are things/actually aren't things or a thing where any word you apply to it is just very clearly always gonna be the wrong word because it's not actually a thing but is.
                        Last edited by ArcaneArts; 07-06-2021, 07:05 PM.


                        Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                        Feminine pronouns, please.

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                        • It's mostly an artifact of Mage 1st being compared at first to Ascension, which had a wide-ranging take on the fundamental nature of reality. Whereas Mage 1st+ or Mage 2nd really emphasize the uncertainty and how the cosmology is crazy-go-nuts. The supernal is a map, not the territory.
                          Last edited by Professor Phobos; 07-06-2021, 07:15 PM.

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                          • I'm interested in how, apparently, slashers have no souls. They are, in a sense, more inhuman than Beasts, who have a replacement for their souls.

                            That is...intriguing.


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                            • In a nutshell: there's a view out there that the Supernal is the underlying reality and that everything derives from it. This view even has its in-game proponents: the Seers of the Throne, an Order in the setting that worships Ascended Beings known as the Exarchs and who claim that everything in the Fallen World rightfully belongs to them.

                              There's also the Free Council, which believes that the Supernal exists because of the so-called Fallen World, pointing to the fact that Supernal symbols can change in response to human innovations. To them, the proper order of this is that humans should be viewed as the center of things, and Supernal symbols should be viewed as tools that they wield.

                              That said, the view of the bulk of Mage's Orders is that the Supernal symbols and the Phenomenal World exist in a symbiosis, with a sort of chicken-and-egg relationship: altering either affects the other, and trying to set up one as superior to the other is a mistake. Supernal symbols provide the handles that mages use to manipulate the Fallen World, so if course mages tend to put a lot of importance on them. But the Supernal is of central importance to mages; is not of central importance overall.

                              That is, Supernatural Phenomena aren't a subset of Supernal Magic; Supernal Magick parallels supernatural phenomena. Because of this parallel nature, there will be Supernal symbols correlating with everything found in the Fallen World; but some are going to be harder to get a handle on than others. Mummy's metaphysics, in particular, seems to be particularly resistant to Supernal manipulations: despite much of their metaphysics being rooted in issues of time, Time magic is remarkably ineffective against it.

                              It also puts assertions such as the one from the Dark Ages line that the Awakened manipulate Sekhem indirectly while the Arisen deals with it directly in a different light. I mean, it's true; but that's true of everything mages do: the whole basis of their metaphysics is to manipulate phenomena indirectly by manipulating the associated Supernal symbols. Sekhem isn't special in that regard.
                              Last edited by Dataweaver; 08-12-2021, 09:59 AM.


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                              • Originally posted by Leliel View Post
                                I'm interested in how, apparently, slashers have no souls. They are, in a sense, more inhuman than Beasts, who have a replacement for their souls.

                                That is...intriguing.
                                Beasts are satiated by shock. Slashers are only satiated by murder.

                                Never really hard to call the worse one between the two, to be honest, as that angle matters for the humanity/monstrosity argument.
                                Last edited by ArcaneArts; 07-06-2021, 07:35 PM.


                                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                                Feminine pronouns, please.

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