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  • Originally posted by Rathford View Post


    It lacks descriptive time. It is timeless. That metaphorical light of the Supernal does not reach it.
    I mean, that's foundationally not true. The Lower Depths aren't predicated on their relationship to Supernal, so the "light" of the Supernal being present or not is not what defines their status as Lower Depths. What defines the Lower Depths is what they lack in relationship to the Fallen/Phenomenal World, and this is one of those ways that reiterates that thinking about Mage Cosmology above all over cosmologies is incorrect, because while those things can be "devoid of LIfe" or "devoid of Time", it can just as easily be "devoid of Sekhem" or "devoid of Virtue"*.

    Trying to make Lower Depths all about their non-relationship to the Supernal Realms is one of those things that happens when you try and make the whole of the Chronicles world about Mage, and that was demonstrably not a good time.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 07-08-2021, 09:41 AM.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
    Feminine pronouns, please.

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    • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

      It's a popular take, but it's based on the fact that Strix, consumate liars as they are, has claimed that's the case to vampires. In the 2e core book, a vampire's beast is written with the assumption that it's merely a representation of all the dark and predatory urges a vampire gains upon the Embrace (hunger for blood, need for dominance, fear of Banes, etc), and not an actual entity. While horrible and monstrous, these urges are deeply animalistic, in contrast to the vice-ridden and sadistic nature of the Strix. Also note that Strix are incapable of Frenzy while Frenzy is the primary outlet for the beast.
      Aw shucks. Forgot about frenzies


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      • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
        I mean, that's foundationally not true. The Lower Depths aren't predicated on their relationship to Supernal, so the "light" of the Supernal being present or not is not what defines their status as Lower Depths. What defines the Lower Depths is what they lack in relationship to the Fallen/Phenomenal World, and this is one of those ways that reiterates that thinking about Mage Cosmology above all over cosmologies is incorrect, because while those things can be "devoid of LIfe" or "devoid of Time", it can just as easily be "devoid of Sekhem" or "devoid of Virtue"*.

        Trying to make Lower Depths all about their non-relationship to the Supernal Realms is one of those things that happens when you try and make the whole of the Chronicles world about Mage, and that was demonstrably not a good time.
        Ironically, the common descriptive shorthand for the Lower Depths also isn't terribly useful except in abstract vagary: Duat, the Inferno, and whatever Dark Places the Strix come from could be described by their lacks, technically Arcana-oriented or otherwise, but for the most part, like other pure-negative descriptions, that doesn't tell you anything worthwhile about them.

        The Lower Depths are off the map and want to eat you, in a way that does not feed back into a larger ecosystem unless something major is playing a bigger game with its cut of the take. Visits are usually one-way trips, barring those cases where astral projection and a special relationship are involved. They are thin realities that are hostile to human life in the way outer space or the depths of the ocean are — there is a pressure differential at work not unlike the one separating the Supernal and Phenomenal, and there's only so much you can do without magic to compensate for the fact that you need to breathe and Flatland #42564 has no concept of air.

        The ancient summation still holds: Not all of them are evil, but none of them are good.


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        • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
          the only thing that actually bugs me is vampires having "human souls" with no explanation of how that's even remotely possible considering how the soul leaves upon death and the Embrace takes place after death.
          In the past I've had thoughts to the effect that Requiem seems to have a subtext that vampires aren't quite as inhuman as they try to convince themselves that they are, to the point that the way some of the super ancient ones seem to be weirdly normal and overcome some of the usual impositions comes across as ones who, with the benefit of time, manage to get over themselves.

          The notion that the composition of a vampire amounts to somebody who died but had freaky blood magic ensure that their soul stuck around when it wasn't supposed to, that they're kind of tangled up inside themselves, to me that would lend a certain context to the interplay between Kindred drives and human hang-ups.

          As far as unconventional Embraces go, I would picture the mystery of the soul's departure (and arrival, for that matter) as also affording leeway for its return. Possibly along lines of it existing in a layer of reality where such causal terms may not strictly apply.

          It would play off of my perspective on Vampire where they seem like the most straightforward on the surface but when you delve in things get all twisted and freakish, whether it's the diverse possibilities of Devotions and Bloodlines, the qualities that can be harnessed as Sorcery, the enforcement power that can arise from their Covenants, basically everything in Coils of the Dragon from the ground up, or all of the bizarre cults and monstrosities that branch away across their history.


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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          • This renewed discussion makes me regret a little only backing at the manuscript preview tier. Ah well, it's not as though I could have simply chosen to have more money then. Is there any word on Deviants and Kinship?

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            • I think I heard we have stuff about Resonance here, but does the crossover rules section have word on Sympathy too? (Mostly from a Mage perspective, but about interaction with other games, like Vampire and blood sympathy)


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              • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                I think I heard we have stuff about Resonance here, but does the crossover rules section have word on Sympathy too? (Mostly from a Mage perspective, but about interaction with other games, like Vampire and blood sympathy)
                It is a substantial subset of the crossover rules for Mage. Beasts, deviants, vampires, changelings, demons, and Bound all have particulars of how they interact with sympathy addressed in their respective subsections.


                Resident Lore-Hound
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                • Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post
                  This renewed discussion makes me regret a little only backing at the manuscript preview tier. Ah well, it's not as though I could have simply chosen to have more money then. Is there any word on Deviants and Kinship?
                  What sort of word are you looking for?

                  Because if it's "Are Deviants kin?", the answer is yes.


                  Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                  Feminine pronouns, please.

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                  • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                    What sort of word are you looking for?

                    Because if it's "Are Deviants kin?", the answer is yes.
                    That's pretty much it. I figured that would be the case, but the Broken have a lot of unique stuff going on, and so didn't want to assume.

                    Changelings and sympathy. . . Does that mean we get a preview of Dramaturgy?

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                    • Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post
                      Changelings and sympathy. . . Does that mean we get a preview of Dramaturgy?
                      Nah. Active Contract Loopholes, however, show up to the Fate and Space spells for looking at sympathetic connections, and the ties a changeling has with their Icons are substantial.


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                      • So while the "how does Mage interact with everything" discussion is nice, did the stuff on other supernaturals interacting with each other turn out as interesting? Like the stuff on joining different groups or the new shared Merits and rules?

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                        • Originally posted by kamenhero25 View Post
                          So while the "how does Mage interact with everything" discussion is nice, did the stuff on other supernaturals interacting with each other turn out as interesting? Like the stuff on joining different groups or the new shared Merits and rules?
                          I'm still chewing on all of that. When I said it feels like a game changer, it's those last ten pages that my brain scrambling to untangle the consequences.


                          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Feminine pronouns, please.

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                          • My group has been having a lot of fun with all the cool story possibilities introduced by explicitly saying vampires can ghoul everybody.


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                            • Originally posted by SomethingFishy View Post
                              My group has been having a lot of fun with all the cool story possibilities introduced by explicitly saying vampires can ghoul everybody.
                              They can do what?!

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                              • Originally posted by kamenhero25 View Post
                                So while the "how does Mage interact with everything" discussion is nice, did the stuff on other supernaturals interacting with each other turn out as interesting? Like the stuff on joining different groups or the new shared Merits and rules?
                                Yes, it has those. I thought that was mentioned upthread, but it can be easy to miss in the tide of posts.
                                I do wish we got more on multisplat groups, but we have enough. It can vary by splat though; no Mage or Begotten can join a Changleing Court via Mantle but Court Goodwill is fine, thus represents how non-Changelings join.


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