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  • Second Chances
    started a topic Contagion Chronicle Kickstarter

    Contagion Chronicle Kickstarter

    Starting in couple of hours! I've made a new thread so that if you are just joining the conversation for the Kickstarter, you don't need to wade through 40 odd pages to reach its start point. I am super stoked for this!

  • Satchel
    replied
    Extremely late in putting this idea into the world, but:

    The fact that calling in a soul pact does actually give a demon a human soul seems like a fun means of squaring the circle between the soul vanishing at the moment of death and the Raise Dead Exploit not properly working on a dead target if you don't have a soul available.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    So, going with that (I'm assuming this is Word of God or something similar), a Demon will be directly affected regardless of the Cover and will still have to deal with any rule or Condition that dictates decision making instead of physical reaction, am I right?
    Not Word of God (I am not Rose Bailey or Matthew McFarland), so much as applying the relevant text of Demon and Promethean to the sidebar as is logically consistent, but otherwise, yes. Demons are still emotional beings, just not ones who experience them as autonomic responses (to the point the core book calls out the struggle demons can have feeling like imposters to themselves over not having their body automatically respond to stimuli).

    Hell, even the sidebar in question doesn't so much say "not affected" so much as "decides how to respond to Disquiet"

    Originally posted by Promethean: the Created, pg. 173
    demons are affected by it, but as they maintain ironclad control over their responses, they can choose whether or not to act on it and in what capacity.
    As for the more specific mechanical examples, sounds about right.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    Demon are always "cool" in their (re-)actions (unless they don't want to be), whether they're feeling sweet, spicy, or bitter underneath-but rest assured, they still have to deal with being sweet (blood bond) or bitter (Disquiet) about someone.
    So, going with that (I'm assuming this is Word of God or something similar), a Demon will be directly affected regardless of the Cover and will still have to deal with any rule or Condition that dictates decision making instead of physical reaction, am I right?

    For example with the Bond, the Regnant still gets all the Social Maneuver and Discipline bonuses. It just stays on the air how the Breaking Points apply if at all. I feel that acting against the Regnant should be the main thing to still be penalized.

    But the Demon wouldn't accrue any other penalty because of the feeling, it would react differently or be immune to some Discipline effects if they rely on physiological response, and more importantly in this case, they would be perfectly able to pretend there is no Bond, no matter how they're scrutinized.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    Disquiet is also a supernatural emotional compulsion, but since a demon is perfectly in control of their emotions, they have the choice to simply just ignore Disquiet.
    Every once and a while, a thing scratches at you. This is one such thing.

    So, for as right as this is, I feel like it still needs some clarification, because demons don't ignore Disquiet-they just don't instinctively act on Disquiet.

    A demon who spends time with a Galateid and fails to resist Disquiet is still going to develop a mental lustful obsession for them-but they get to decide if they pop a boner or not, whether they become flush at the thought at them, whether they have their hand slightly chase after their body warmth when leaving a cramped elevator near them. The demon will still hate and love the Galateid in equal measure-they just have a better grip on how they react to it.

    What this generally should mean, in game play, is that the Disquiet conditions still act as normal-the Promethean will still have trouble socializing with a Demon, and a Demon will start assigning problems and prioritzations according to how deep they're in-but a Demon basically can suspend any penalties in regards to their actions towards the Promethean. It does not matter how much they hate this fucking non-person in front of them, if they need to charm and be affectionate to them to get what they need, their bodies are never going to betray that hate as they go about it-but as soon as the job is done, the demon's probably going to engineer whatever out they can to keep that person away....or worse, depending on the Disquiet they're dealing with and how strong it is.

    In similar fashion, a Demon dealing with a blood bond will still have a mental connection, a deep and abiding attraction and fixation on someone-but spending time with the bonder doesn't mean they have to rush to touch themselves after the occurence is done. The vampire still becomes more and more important to the demon as it goes on, it affects their plans for the future and goals in the immediate, but a demon may never demonstrate being flustered or seem obviously eager to meet up with them. it becomes a matter of realizing how they allot their time and make their plans.

    Demon are always "cool" in their (re-)actions (unless they don't want to be), whether they're feeling sweet, spicy, or bitter underneath-but rest assured, they still have to deal with being sweet (blood bond) or bitter (Disquiet) about someone.
    Last edited by ArcaneArts; 12-07-2021, 07:12 PM.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    We can even explore the distinction between Blood Bond and Ghoul. They are not the same and the Demon may react to each differently, as the Bond is a psychological force while the Ghoul state is a reaction to a Supernatural Resource being trapped inside them. After all, where does this mystic energy goes when the Demon changes Cover?
    Becoming a ghoul is not just a reaction to being imbued with Vitae. It's a deliberate (if underexplained) process involving a vampire which permanently transforms a human into a ghoul. A ghoul can at most hope for their condition to regress (which it can do indefinitely, but with possible drawbacks and can come back at any time if they feed on Vitae again).
    But yes, it should absolutely not be confused with the blood bond. While extremely unlikely, it's fully possible to become a ghoul without getting a blood bond, and being blood bonded makes you no closer to being a ghoul (other than the fact that vampires usually only ghoul those who already are bonded to them).

    As for demons and blood bonds, I'd look to the excellent crossover advice for Disquiet in Promethean. Disquiet is also a supernatural emotional compulsion, but since a demon is perfectly in control of their emotions, they have the choice to simply just ignore Disquiet. But if they do, it may cause Compromise since their Cover (if afflicted while in a Cover) isn't supposed to be able to ignore it.
    Mechanically speaking, that's the only way you can handle the blood bond because it forces behaviour by punishing the victim with breaking points if they act against their regnant. Demons can't be coerced through breaking points (since they lack Integrity, Humanity, or other equivalent psychological trait), but they might want to act coerced anyway to avoid breaking their Cover.

    Edit: Personally, I would just not allow demons to become ghouls. Much like taking splats as Covers in PGttCC, it would only result in the Cover having the status of being a ghoul but with the demon not gaining any of the benefits or drawbacks, at my table. As the booklet says, that follows and reinforces the themes of the game. Maybe I'd rule differently in a crossover game, but I'm of the mind that such games muddles both gameplay balance and thematic coherence, and giving a demon the powers of a ghoul would just reinforce both issues. As such, any crossover game I'd play would throw out both of those for some superhero style fun instead, and then you can just go nuts with these things.
    Last edited by Tessie; 12-07-2021, 08:51 AM.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr.F.I.X. View Post
    The only reason I'd lean away from that is with how the addiction condition is generally cover specific and I could see the blood bond similar to disquiet, able to be ignored but doing so risks comprise.
    I don't lean towards any particular interpretation because I think they explore different themes and possibilities for each chronicle. In a Demon game where I want to highlight how dangerous other splats are on their own right if the characters don't take care, I would make so that the Demon is whole susceptible to the Bond. It isn't just addiction, it is a supernatural emotion of unprecedented strength.

    But there are other possibilities to explore. The Demon may risk it depending on how they feed on the Vitae, but have safe ways to do so and only put the Cover in the line. There may be Glitches, as you said the Cover isn't made to handle this situation.

    We can even explore the distinction between Blood Bond and Ghoul. They are not the same and the Demon may react to each differently, as the Bond is a psychological force while the Ghoul state is a reaction to a Supernatural Resource being trapped inside them. After all, where does this mystic energy goes when the Demon changes Cover?

    Maybe the state isn't even reliable, changing in unexpected ways when the Demon changes Cover or assumes angelic form because of this energy being displaced and wreaking havoc outside of its intended place.

    There are many possibilities, and I don't think that setting strictly to one does the game any good.

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  • Mr.F.I.X.
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    Just do what's best for your game, considering the impacts.

    I don't think making the Demon outright immune to Ghouling much interesting unless you have reason to fear power creeping.

    What you may consider is if the state of Ghoul will be bound to the Cover or to the Demon itself. You can have this as an option, where the Curse is so metaphysically potent that it affects the Demon itself, making it and every Cover it uses into a Ghoul.
    The only reason I'd lean away from that is with how the addiction condition is generally cover specific and I could see the blood bond similar to disquiet, able to be ignored but doing so risks comprise.

    Of course, that's assuming that the demon doesn't feed in their true form. In that case it would apply to the demon directly, without the buffer of cover.

    Maybe the act of a cover becoming a ghoul in itself is a compromise risk, less so for standard reasons and more so that mimicking such is not what the cover was designed for (in universe). Maybe it also just causes a glitch in that cover that persists as long as the cover is in this altered state.

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  • Aurumae
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    What you may consider is if the state of Ghoul will be bound to the Cover or to the Demon itself.
    I like this idea. It also makes sense if you consider what would happen if a Demon made a soul pact with a Ghoul. It doesn't make much sense for the Demon to become a Ghoul in other covers, but that particular cover could remain a Ghoul

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr.F.I.X. View Post
    That is fair, in context of a contagion Chronicle is different to a game that isn't.
    Just do what's best for your game, considering the impacts.

    I don't think making the Demon outright immune to Ghouling much interesting unless you have reason to fear power creeping.

    What you may consider is if the state of Ghoul will be bound to the Cover or to the Demon itself. You can have this as an option, where the Curse is so metaphysically potent that it affects the Demon itself, making it and every Cover it uses into a Ghoul.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    I would also point out that if the context is not contagion chronicle, the issue is very likely to be moot.

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  • Mr.F.I.X.
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Note that this is being posted in a thread about a supplement that's all about things happening that are not “supposed to” happen. As well, the companion encourages the Storyteller to tear down the barriers between gamelines even without invoking the Contagion. So I say go for it!
    That is fair, in context of a contagion Chronicle is different to a game that isn't.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Note that this is being posted in a thread about a supplement that's all about things happening that are not “supposed to” happen. As well, the companion encourages the Storyteller to tear down the barriers between gamelines even without invoking the Contagion. So I say go for it!

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr.F.I.X.
    replied
    This might be the most appropriate place to put this but with major and minor templates not being the distinction it previously was post PG to the contagion, but with how cover was written would it be "best" to still not allow demons to become ghouls? I'm a bit on the fence for my own games.

    On one hand the lore that prevents it is obviously written to explain why it cant happen when the separation between major and minor templates was in place. But on the other hand some of the themes as well as the limitations demons have to work within might be detracted from if their covers can support supernatural details.

    I could see a demon with an "imortal" cover being an interesting npc but it is a big adjustment.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Neos01 View Post

    So, you think that as long as something is considered conceptually a piece of communication or surveillance technology, CALIBER can connect even if some components are living things?
    In your example, CALIBER would consider the sentinel on a watchtower as a "camera"?
    Since Authority has a tier for using people as surveillance, I would say the watchertower and tools themselves for the lower tiers of power, but effectively, yes.

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