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Minor or Merit Templates vs Major Templates

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  • Minor or Merit Templates vs Major Templates

    So, in a direct fight 1v1, are there any minor or merit templates (canon, from major fansplats, or things in the Storytellers Vault) that can stand up to major templates (possibly allowing synergizing between two minors/merit (such as HL's Psychic Vampires and 2e Second Sight's psychics, as long as it do)?

  • #2
    Ghouls and fae-touched aren’t that far behind vampires and changelings (respectively), and proximi cast mage spells which is to say they have some of the strongest powers out of anything.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
      Ghouls and fae-touched aren’t that far behind vampires and changelings (respectively), and proximi cast mage spells which is to say they have some of the strongest powers out of anything.
      Really, really weakened Mage spells, since their Dice Pool is meh, they get no free Spell Factors, and they can't use Yantras.


      Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
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      • #4
        Purified perhaps.

        It also matters how much XP the characters have. A Fae Touched/Ghoul/Purified/Psychic Vampire to 100xp spent on magic will be extremely dangerous to a newbie Vampire/Changeling/Mage ect...

        A noobie Fae Touched, Ghoul, Psychic Vampire or Purified will likely be take on most Deviants.

        Of these Purified are the most dangerous they can survive a fight with an enraged Werewolf, they hard kill permenantly.

        Ghouls can be tough and dangerous, but refueling is hard.

        Fae Touched aren't as tough or durable, but they have the easiest fuels stat to replenish, and they can potentially summon up an army of Elemental Creatures, including Elementals made of Sunlight and Fire Elementals (sucks to a Vampire fighting that) and Silver Elementals.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
          Really, really weakened Mage spells, since their Dice Pool is meh, they get no free Spell Factors, and they can't use Yantras.
          Not only that, the reason mages are so powerful is because of the versatility of their Arcana. A good mage can come up with a spell for every situation while Proximi are stuck with the few spells they have access to. Some spells can be extremely powerful in their own right, but they're just as likely, if not more, to be extremely situational and niche.

          For the purposes of this thread I'd put my money on the ghoul as they have potential to learn and use almost the complete range of Disciplines. A badass ghoul can easily be compared to or even defeat starting characters of most of the major splats. The drawbacks (compared to vampires) comes mainly from having none of the vampiric innate abilities, no access to Devotions, and sucky Vitae pool & Vitae/turn. They also need to get Vitae on a regular basis.
          I believe Fae-Touched also have great potential, but it was a while since I read their rules so I can't say for sure.

          Wolf-Blooded, despite being related to the big bad werewolves, are worse than Proximi in most ways. They can't get more than two Tells at the most, and perhaps a Merit or two. Coupled with each Tell is also a drawback that can be pretty significant. Additionally, most Tells are either watered down werewolf abilities or just very niche. Perfect for minor pack members to expand the capabilities of the pack as a whole, but not good enough on their own to stand up against a real threat.

          Minor templates can be powerful, but they can't really measure up to the major splats unless there's a significant XP difference between them, like with my ghoul above. And even then all major splats have much larger potential due to innate abilities and larger range of powers, meaning that at a point it doesn't really matter if the ghoul has infinite XP because a vampire with high enough Blood Potency can compensate through innate abilities and increased Vitae/turn.


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          • #6
            Well, what about stacking 2 minor templates, or a minor template and a micro (finding ways to boost psy vamp sounds effective, any more and you'd probably get a scowl)? Would combining allow them to keep up?

            As a side note, a Harvester's Scythe's incapacitating abilities or an eternal's ability to quickly shrug off dying seem like a good, cheap way to even up the score some
            Last edited by Tzauri; 06-06-2019, 11:10 AM.

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            • #7
              You should probably be more specific by what you mean by "stand up to".

              Off the top of my head purified, gutter mages, dark heroes, siten uzu/ridden, possessed, demon-blooed, and dhampir can all pose serious issues to the major templates in even direct confrantaion.


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              • #8
                Lost Boys from Hurt Locker can get pretty dangerous

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                • #9
                  If you mean is there a minor template that can defeat one of splat template then yes, anyone who can unleash enough fire can take on a vampire and hope to win. I imagine there are many exploitable weaknesses amongst the major splats that you make use of.

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                  • #10
                    Depending on if you consider them minor or not, Demon Blooded and Dhampir both have sufficient options to at least contest lower level (power stat 1-2) supernaturals.

                    Built correctly, psychic humans are terrifying.

                    Psychic Vampires actually have a slew of options and could probably give vampires of similar XP a run for their money.

                    Ghouls have a lot of vampire advantages with few physical disadvantages. They can even learn all of the common disciplines plus their clan one without a teacher. Imagine an Akhud Ghoul (assuming you allow a ghoul to have Praestantia) with max physical disciplines. Without spending blood or buying a power stat to absurd levels, that ghoul can potentially have 10s in all physical traits.

                    All of this also depends on availability of certain merits. For instance, if a lesser template can take Supernatural merits, their options expand greatly. Shadow Occultists on their own aren't world breakers, but with other merits they can create odd combinations that can hurt - same with all templates. Also, prep time is a factor, as is if they know the fight is coming.

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