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Handling Mixed Groups - Pack / Cabal / Motley

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  • Handling Mixed Groups - Pack / Cabal / Motley

    I haven't gotten into the CtL2 section on Motley's very heavily yet, but I know that Forsaken and Awakening seem fairly open about allowing Packs and Cabals to include individuals who are not of the specific splat type - and I can kind of see how you might deal with the odd variant character in an otherwise cohesive group (I've dealt with a single Awakened as part of an Uratha Pack) but anyone have experience or thoughts on handling a PC group comprised of single individuals of multiple groups?

    I have a game that i am prepping for sometime in the near future that is likely to involve at least one of each wolf, mage, and changeling - possibly with a 4th who is one of those three or a minor template adjacent to one of those. I know wolves have certain benefits to Pack (totem, Sacred Hunt rite, etc.) I can't recall the benefits of Cabal or Motley off hand, but how would you handle those benefits with a group that isn't really a true Cabal, Pack, or Motley and when the lone wolf is the only one that can benefit from the Sacred Hunt rite, etc.?

  • #2
    Well, a cabal doesn't really have mechanical benefits aside from the cabal theme merit (it's not that important), it's more like a corporate entity. You can share certain merits with other members, but that's not really an in-setting thing, it's just a mechanic.


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    • #3
      Yeah I think you'd need more than one wolf to have a pack, unless everyone had the special merit that allows for non-werewolf packs. And a totem. If the werewolf and others didn't pitch in for a totem you would probably just have a lone wolf who's in a group with changelings and so forth.

      Basically, you can sidestep any issues by not requiring them to be in an actual pack. But if you do want them to be in a pack, give everyone option to get the Totem Merit, have rites work the same (Pack rites tend to be more advantageous for 'the pack' than Wolf rites).
      Last edited by nofather; 06-06-2019, 08:54 PM.

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      • #4
        Other supernaturals are by default capable of being full pack members and even purchasing Totem dots and benefiting from Pack Rites (but not Wolf Rites), so no problems there. Motley oaths, on the other hand, are changeling-only.

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        • #5
          If the group is okay with having a Totem or have a majority of werewolves among the major splats, use the full pack rules (meaning everyone can buy Totem dots and everyone benefits from Pack Rites). You might shake up the pack creation process by including less Wolf-Blooded and more minor splats from the other games. Otherwise it's not really much of a pack and wouldn't gain any pack benefits.

          Cabals only have the Cabal Theme as a possible benefit. If there are multiple mages in the group they could form a subgroup as a cabal and buy the Merit. Otherwise I'd require everyone in the group to follow the chosen theme, but only the mage has to actually spend XP since they're the only one gaining a benefit from it.

          Motley Oaths are changeling only so no deal. The Hollow Merit is also supposed to be changeling only, but if the game is supposed to take place in the Hedge I'd allow for all players to contribute dots where it makes sense for them. If the werewolf has befriended or "befriended" a group of hobgoblins, they should be able to buy Hob Alarm.

          Coteries have no actual benefits, iirc. (Including for future readers; not relevant for OP.)


          It's common for different splats to have different Merits based on the Safe Place Merit. I'd allow members of those splats to buy their related addon Merits and have the entire group gain the benefits if relevant for them. A Sanctum will naturally do fuck all for non-mages and that's just how it's going to be (except for Ordo who can use it as a Wyrm's Nest, those cheaters), but the traps from a Haven should protect everyone from an intruder.
          Similarly, any "external" Merits that are limited to a splat (like Locus) might only be purchasable for that splat (though for Locus I'd also allow mages) but usable for everyone else if they are capable of using it (the Ordo vampire using a Locus as a Wyrm's Nest).
          Last edited by Tessie; 06-07-2019, 06:56 AM.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tessie View Post
            If the group is okay with having a Totem
            The reason they may not be being that packmembers are expected to follow their totem’s Ban.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
              The reason they may not be being that packmembers are expected to follow their totem’s Ban.
              Also "Why should we care about this spirit?"


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                Also "Why should we care about this spirit?"
                Answer: You can't see it or directly interact with it, but you can definitely feel when it's benefiting you and when it's not.

                That moment when you're holding up a building and feel your strength suddenly drop is a terrible moment to realize that maybe, just maybe, you should have actually left your ofrendas for the nightmare thing the wolf negotiates with.


                Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                  Also "Why should we care about this spirit?"

                  Since the game will most likely be taking place 6th century Britain following the fall of Camelot, getting buy-in from the non-Uratha to take patronage from a local spirit may not be as difficult as with a modern era game. Though if we end up with a multi-religion party that could get interesting.

                  One other thing I have considered is having members of different splats having their own individual allegiances to their respective pack, court, or order (I know these are not analogous groups, but they're what I am seeing as the most likely "local group" for each splat within the setting) but operating together as something of a diplomatic alliance working towards specific goals in their region while reporting back to their separate groups and possibly being called on for specific assistance from their individual groups for something when/if the player needs to be absent for a session. - Still weighing the pros and cons of that option, though.

                  As an aside - since I don't have ready access to the CtL book at the moment - would "good will" merits with the other groups be appropriate for the PCs from different splats (ie the mage and wolf gaining Court Good Will for the court the changeling belongs to, and creating something similar to be earned for the wolf and mage groups?)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                    Answer: You can't see it or directly interact with it, but you can definitely feel when it's benefiting you and when it's not.

                    That moment when you're holding up a building and feel your strength suddenly drop is a terrible moment to realize that maybe, just maybe, you should have actually left your ofrendas for the nightmare thing the wolf negotiates with.
                    I'm not saying that there isn't any benefits. I'm saying that it's difficult to convince people about them. The whole concept is pretty weird in non-animistic societies, and those who are open to relying on invisible entities tend to already have religions.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                      I'm not saying that there isn't any benefits. I'm saying that it's difficult to convince people about them. The whole concept is pretty weird in non-animistic societies, and those who are open to relying on invisible entities tend to already have religions.
                      It's a lot less weird when you deal with things that don't exist in any meaningful way but are truer than the base matter around you or when you bargain with a nice spring day for a reconstituionalization of self.
                      Last edited by ArcaneArts; 06-09-2019, 03:48 AM.


                      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                      • #12
                        Motley oaths are changeling-only, but there's no reason you couldn't "adopt" a non-changeling into your motley as long as you're okay with the fact that they're not properly oathsworn. Kith & Kin will go into this a bit. (Also, in DE2 you'll see ways for mages and changelings to join forces, in Wild West.)


                        Meghan Fitzgerald | Onyx Path freelance writer & developer
                        Changeling: The Lost 2e developer

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Meghan Fitzgerald View Post
                          Motley oaths are changeling-only, but there's no reason you couldn't "adopt" a non-changeling into your motley as long as you're okay with the fact that they're not properly oathsworn. Kith & Kin will go into this a bit. (Also, in DE2 you'll see ways for mages and changelings to join forces, in Wild West.)
                          Can't Mages of the Fate Arcana also sanctify Oaths? - so even if non-Changelings can't be Oathsworn via the Motley oath, if you've got a Fate Mage in the group you could still bind the entire group with an Oath through Supernal means.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jmkoontz1980 View Post

                            Can't Mages of the Fate Arcana also sanctify Oaths? - so even if non-Changelings can't be Oathsworn via the Motley oath, if you've got a Fate Mage in the group you could still bind the entire group with an Oath through Supernal means.
                            So long as you trust the guy whose entire spliel is binding other people's oaths but breaking their own, sure.

                            Which I suppose would have to be case in this scenario, cause that's true regardless of who's swearing what.
                            Last edited by ArcaneArts; 06-10-2019, 05:15 PM.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                            Comment

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