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  • What Can Become What?

    first off, I tried searching, but the terms are too vague for a search to work, so if this discussion topic already exists, somewhere that you know of, feel free to link me ...

    But on topic, what character types can become what other character types?

    My understanding is that anything less than a major template is fair game to become any of the major templates. (The exception to this being a few minor templates that are incompatible with anything else - the ghost minor template from Geist 2E comes to mind, and I can't remember the Vampire 2E minor template off hand, if they are still living and capable of becoming something else)

    I would also assume that since Mages and Werewolves happen "naturally" it would not be possible for something else having already acquired a different major template would be able to Awaken or First.

    But what about Changelings or Mages being Embraced? Or Uratha being taken by the Gentry? Does having a major template grant some sort of immunity to becoming a different one by force?

  • #2
    There used to be rules against it in first edition. In second edition it's left unspoken as to not limit any groups' enjoyment should they desire to stack or replace templates. Afaik only the Mage line dev has been outspoken about mages not being able to be embraced (due to their reinforced souls protecting them) and that non-humans can't be awakened (as the Watchtowers exclusively chooses humans).

    When looking into the various games' metaphysics it becomes obvious that most templates can't stack with other templates:
    None can Awaken, as mentioned above.
    Vampires can't become anything else since they're dead and all the other splats are either alive, had to die in part of becoming the splat (Mummies, Bound), or can't already be an individual (Prometheans).
    None can become Beasts (as only humans and mages have the right connections to the Astral, and mages are protected).
    Mummies already have a predefined origin as humans (even if they weren't, they're mummies now anyway).
    Prometheans are created from scratch (though their bodies might previously have been another splat) but could possibly become another splat after a successful New Dawn since by then they would be human and thus no stacking.
    Demons were never humans, and all other splats were humans (except Unfleshed Prometheans, but they weren't demons either).

    Theoretically speaking, a vampire might be able to Embrace all of the living splats (except mages, according to the line dev), but only because we don't actually know anything about how the Embrace actually works. It would most certainly replace the previous template rather than stack with it.
    We don't know how a First Change works either. There are no known limitations on who can become a werewolf (especially since a capricious diety seems to hand pick some of them) other than the fact that we've never heard of anyone non-human becoming a werewolf.
    A weird thing about mages is that they're said to be immune to the Embrace (and would just die instead) due to their mage souls, but the Embrace happens after the soul has already left the body. In the same vein, the Bound are implied to be created by a newly dead person's soul and their future Geist, which also happens after the soul is gone.


    Also, exceptions always exist. Exceptional circumstances, divine intervention (i.e. meddling archmasters, Rank 6+ entities and such), and the work of a crazed occultist/occult scientist can all circumvent any rules, as long as it makes the game more enjoyable.
    If Luna want a Promethean to First Change before they've completed their Pilgrimage, she might find a way to do it, and now an unfortunate Pack needs to deal with a newbie who can't stop radiating the foulest Resonances, and always attract angry humans whenever they should've caused Lunacy.
    An Ordo scientist obsessed over the idea of Embracing a Beast finally succeeded after multiple attempts (and moves between cities) only to find out that the now severed Horror inherited the hunger for blood without means to fulfil it, going on a feeding spree across the city's populace, targeting both humans and supernaturals alike.
    Basically, if it serves a story, go for it.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • #3
      First edition materials, especially earlier first edition, take the general position that if you have a "major" template with a Supernatural Potency trait, you can't then undergo a transformation into another major template. A vampire who exsanguinates a mage and attempts to Embrace her simply ends up with the corpse of a dead mage. Wolf-blooded who experience the Awakening and become mages will never undergo the First Change.

      The two sideways exceptions are Prometheans and hunters. Hunters are not a major template in this sense, with the possible exception of certain third-tier conspiracies who wield supernatural Endowments. A first-tier lone wolf hunter or a VALKYRIE foot soldier can be Embraced or made into a changeling. A Promethean who successfully completes the Great Work becomes an ordinary human, and as such is a valid subject to transform into a major template. A new Promethean can also be created from the corpse of a major template creature, like a dead mage. The result, however, isn't the dead mage resurrected as a Promethean. The Promethean is a newborn person with a recycled body from the dead mage.

      Second edition mostly avoids firm declarations so far. The Synthesis Embodiment of the strix in Vampire: the Requiem Second Edition is a good general outlook: a power that typically transforms a dead or living human into one of the Kindred can target other supernatural beings successfully, but the result is an unpredictable and unique fusion of their themes and natures, without any reliable instruction guide on the outcome.

      The few firm declarations that have been made in second edition, to my knowledge, are that Wolf-Blooded explicitly can undergo the Embrace, the First Change, the Awakening, or the Durance, losing any Wolf-Blooded Merits but (excepting the Awakened) retaining their supernatural Tell, and that no other "major" template with unique powers can Awaken, while "lesser" templates vary on a case-by-case basis (ghouls and stigmatics no, Wolf-Blooded and hunters without supernatural Endowments yes).

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
        losing any Wolf-Blooded Merits but (excepting the Awakened) retaining their supernatural Tell
        I think you mean First Changed. In a weird twist it's only werewolves who loses their Tell.


        Bloodline: The Stygians
        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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        • #5
          No, wolf blooded who Awaken lose it. The Watchtower's "all supernatural effects or power s are now scrubbed from you as part of reformatting you into a Mage" beats the general rule that a wolfblooded keeps the tell after being embraced, turned into a changeling, etc.


          Dave Brookshaw

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          • #6
            Ok. My confusion is understandable considering the WB keeping their Tell paragraph actually includes Awakenings as an example.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

            Comment


            • #7
              It's newly published stuff from Signs of Sorcery, as is the rest of the second edition information on who can and can't Awaken. As you say, before Signs of Sorcery the published word would have said that they keep the Tell, but the Mage gameline now disagrees.

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              • #8
                But why though? That’s so much less fun than Wolf-Blooded Mages being a thing.

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                • #9
                  I'm more curious about how things like Fuck Ugly change. Most of the Tells revolve around a physical aspect. Your eye is milked over, your jaw is really wide, or you have a birthmark or third nipple. Do these just go away? Awakening never seemed like a carwash of physical deviations (I can read about Awakenings now though). I get the balance reasons, though it says "Minor supernatural powers as exhibited by many Sleepwalkers do not prevent Awakening but most vanish should the Sleepwalker ever Awaken." So maybe the errata would be changing the 'most' to 'all' rather than hanging on Tells?
                  Last edited by nofather; 06-20-2019, 02:30 PM.

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                  • #10
                    The physical signs of most Tells could remain. You'd have a third nipple but it no longer lactates Essence (or whatever it did; I don't remember the details).


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #11
                      With their drawbacks? Fuck Ugly makes it so first impressions don't get a 10-again. Bite makes the person look thuggish and suffer a -3 penalty on attempts to be underestimated or look innocent. These didn't seem like supernatural aspects of the Tells.

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                      • #12
                        I consider those drawbacks to be way too powerful not to be supernatural. A mundane version would be Striking Looks, which only grants a small bonus to rolls relevant to your looks.
                        Fittingly the Tell and Striking Looks Merits happen to have the same dot ratings, so you could Sanctity of Merits a lost Tell into the mundane version of the looks. Probably to make them more intimidating. And if you don't SoM to Striking Looks, you could still scale back exactly how ugly the previously Fuck-Ugly character is so that their appearance, though noteworthy, won't modify any rolls.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                          No, wolf blooded who Awaken lose it. The Watchtower's "all supernatural effects or power s are now scrubbed from you as part of reformatting you into a Mage" beats the general rule that a wolfblooded keeps the tell after being embraced, turned into a changeling, etc.
                          Huh. Does that work the other way round?

                          Because I definitely recall a Stigmatatic Mage in the Seattle book book and if the Watchtowers 'cleanse' influences that might make more sense if the God-Machine affected him after the Awakening.


                          Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
                            Because I definitely recall a Stigmatatic Mage in the Seattle book book and if the Watchtowers 'cleanse' influences that might make more sense if the God-Machine affected him after the Awakening.
                            Moore was unknowingly stigmatic before his Awakening, received the dream at a point where he had become a high-ranking Acanthus with a powerful understanding of the Time Arcanum, and has been puzzled ever since by the failure of his attempts to replicate the dream. It's a Mystery that doesn't rely on Moore continuing to be tapped into the God-Machine specifically.


                            Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                            • #15
                              I'd let anything become anything, personally. It comes up rarely enough that it's not worth restricting.


                              Cavaliers of Mars Creator

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