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[Balance discussion]Combat archery from Hurt Locker

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  • Azmodael
    started a topic [Balance discussion]Combat archery from Hurt Locker

    [Balance discussion]Combat archery from Hurt Locker

    We started a vampire game and my character is an Asamite assassin that relies on bow for staking & carrying away his targets. It's a very cool concept and the archaic bow is actually a terrifying weapon against the Kindred. I only need to score 2 successes on an attack (-3 for aimed shot, but that is still way easier than landing a melee attack) to stake Vamps without armor/resilience.

    The issue is that my ST has problems with this style, particularly with Parthian Shot at 3.

    My defense is not even THAT high at 7 (3 from Dex/Wits, 3 from Athletics, 1 from Celerity). But when i dodge this bumps my defense pool to 14 (up to 18 with WP). Needless to say this makes sending melee mooks a hard sell - ghoul, vampire or mortal alike.

    I think this is part of the generic issue with melee being terrible due to Athletics adding to Defense and offense alike. Parthian shot feels like rubbing salt in the would...

    Have you ran into similar issues? Any possible remedy?

  • Wormwood
    replied
    Seconding what was said: lots of mooks, ranged mooks, hired specialists, attacking you where it hurts (friends - mortal or otherwise), good use of supernatural abilities - all those work.
    Most interesting imo would be clever tactics, e.g. use of environment. It'd be easy to practically cripple the character with a maze-like building with lots of corners and cover, negating your ranged ability if you get drawn in. A literal trap made to fight you (would be hell on the PC, but also reflective of how far they've come if people go to these lengths to beat them). Or hell, explosives. Taking your friends as living cover also works. A place with lots of cover always helps. What I think would be more fun to use would be a confusing place like a mirror cabinet or the outright use of illusions. Bait-tactics to make you run out of arrows (including sacrificing mooks).
    Use of tools can work, too - flashbangs, smoke grenades etc. to take away your vision. SWAT-issued shields and plated armor.
    I agree with Khanwulf, however: the measures should not force you to change your style, merely challenge you to decrease any OP-ness and highlight how much of a nuisance your PC has become.

    Leave a comment:


  • Khanwulf
    replied
    Back to the OP's matter.

    First: great character concept. Quite evocative. Now there have been a variety of points as to how to reduce your character's dodge pool: Celerity, lots of mooks, environment, all of these could easily do the trick. If your character is known for a certain style then there will be someone who will come along to counter it.

    However. Were I your ST I'd put effort into lining up one or several antagonists hired in to deal with you. You know: thrown weapon masters, a sword artist with arrow deflection, etc. You're playing Hawkeye and instead of taking away your schtick that can and should be played up.

    In the meantime, if half the vampiric population is turning up in inconvenient places with wooden arrows through their tickers, that kind of behavior will come back on you in the form of censure and penalties on your allies (mortal or otherwise) who CAN be caught, pinned down and given very stern lectures about their "associate" with a bow. You know, lectures with molten lead on the lucky ones.

    On to a related matter: sure you can stake vamps with wooden arrowshafts. Note that the damage rating for arrows would be for those with metal heads, which would not, strictly speaking, qualify as "stakes" in the same way that a fire-hardened arrowshaft might. So you might be hitting vamps with a penalty to your damage, at least until you can develop a Devotion that treats the arrow with Vitae and makes it as hard as iron....

    --Khanwulf

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  • Darksider
    replied
    Originally posted by Morangias View Post

    I didn't have to try hard at all! Your posts make it really easy for me.
    Rules 1 and 2 violations, take a week off.

    Leave a comment:


  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
    It is impossible to take you seriously when you try this hard to be condescending.
    I didn't have to try hard at all! Your posts make it really easy for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • lnodiv
    replied
    Originally posted by Morangias View Post
    See, applying logic and common sense to WoD can work! You just have to have some common sense and basic understanding of logic.
    It is impossible to take you seriously when you try this hard to be condescending.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post
    I'd add, they presumably used a hammer as well seeing as humans (and presumably vampires) have ribs. However, Requiem clearly takes inspiration from more modern vampire fiction where you can one-hand a stake like a wooden dagger, in which case, for a stake to be wieldable as a weapon, it'd need to be relatively thin.
    You still need quite a lot of damage for it to reach the heart, which either means a good hit (between ribs, bending them away) or a forceful hit (enough force to just break the rib that's in the way. Considering that the targeting penalty is so low I'm inclined to believe it's not about finding the gap between the right ribs as much as just punching through them. Also note the massive Initiative penalty which implies that the stake is quite cumbersome to wield (even though it's neither two-handed nor heavy).

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  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by Morangias View Post
    While sunlight works on vampires about as you'd expect, the stake does not, because in folklore, the "staking" is literally the act of nailing the corpse to the coffin so it doesn't rise. Obviously they wouldn't use a crossbow for that! The "stake" itself is of little consequence and there are many "vampire burials" in which simple iron nails have been employed in place of wood.
    I'd add, they presumably used a hammer as well seeing as humans (and presumably vampires) have ribs. However, Requiem clearly takes inspiration from more modern vampire fiction where you can one-hand a stake like a wooden dagger, in which case, for a stake to be wieldable as a weapon, it'd need to be relatively thin.

    Leave a comment:


  • Morangias
    replied
    Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
    Kind of like the common folklore knowledge of using a stake to pin a corpse to the grave so it wouldn’t rise again? Something that certainly never involved using a crossbow to do the job during it’s Slavic origins?

    And yet, common sense *should* cause us to disregard that knowledge, but not knowledge about the symbolic differences between moonlight and sunlight. Interesting stance.
    While sunlight works on vampires about as you'd expect, the stake does not, because in folklore, the "staking" is literally the act of nailing the corpse to the coffin so it doesn't rise. Obviously they wouldn't use a crossbow for that! The "stake" itself is of little consequence and there are many "vampire burials" in which simple iron nails have been employed in place of wood.

    But that's not how it works in WoD/CofD. Here, the wooden stake needs to pierce the vampire heart to send it into torpor for as long as it remains in the heart. So, what is a stake in that case? The only definition of the word applicable in this context is 'a stick pointed at one end'. So, since we're talking wooden stake, a pointed piece of wood. A definition that a sharpened wooden arrowshaft matches. Since there are no other qualifiers attached to the 'wooden stake' in CofD that would disqualify such an arrowshaft from counting as a stake, it follows that it counts as a stake.

    See, applying logic and common sense to WoD can work! You just have to have some common sense and basic understanding of logic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
    Create Light (Forces 5, Mage page 146) explicitly states it can create sunlight, it has no other Arcana required. This would seem to imply that the properties of sunlight are Forces based, at least to me.
    Well, then.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr.F.I.X.
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    Staking = putting a piece of (presumably sharpened) wood into a vampire's heart. Stake is merely shorthand or crossbow bolts wouldn't be able to stake a vampire (as is included in the 2e core).
    In addition to this bows have the same line of text in hurt locker.

    Leave a comment:


  • proindrakenzol
    replied
    This is all just my interpretation, I'm not trying to change your mind, just explain my viewpoint.

    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    If you rule that moonlight is just very diminished sunlight (symbolically speaking) with inherent potential to damage vampires if it weren't as diminished, then that would be the consistent outcome if you just pump it up high enough. I don't think it is, though, as vampires have no reaction to moonlight at all despite risking Frenzy when simply threatened with sunlight. Even if it's diminished to the point where it doesn't do any damage, I still think it should warrant a mention that vampires dislike the moon due to it redirecting a portion of their greatest Bane down on them.
    I view the V!Beast's Frenzy response as a naturally triggered survival instinct, not a supernaturally triggered one. That means that, to me, the V!Beast must have a threshold for something to be recognized, below which it (as an instinctual, rather than reasoned response mechanism) simply doesn't react. Moonlight isn't merely half, or a quarter, or even a tenth as strong as Sunlight, it's four hundred thousandths as strong, it's simply not bright enough or damaging enough to cause a psychological or physiological reaction from the V!Beast.

    It's like a peanut allergy, someone can be deathly allergic to peanuts, but if something only contained 1/400,000 of a lethal peanut dose they would be completely unaffected. So if moonlight carries the same metaphysical properties as sunlight they would be so diluted as to have no effect and be swamped by any metaphysical properties imparted by reflecting off the moon.

    But if you could strengthen the moonlight enough it would still affect anything affected by sunlight.



    My preferred way of having mages create sunlight would be to have a Reach option for adding Prime to any Forces spells that deal with light in order to turn it mystically into sunlight. Prime is the Arcanum dealing with Resonances and that's kinda the only thing that can differ between regular light and sunlight.
    Create Light (Forces 5, Mage page 146) explicitly states it can create sunlight, it has no other Arcana required. This would seem to imply that the properties of sunlight are Forces based, at least to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    If you rule that moonlight is just very diminished sunlight (symbolically speaking) with inherent potential to damage vampires if it weren't as diminished, then that would be the consistent outcome if you just pump it up high enough. I don't think it is, though, as vampires have no reaction to moonlight at all despite risking Frenzy when simply threatened with sunlight. Even if it's diminished to the point where it doesn't do any damage, I still think it should warrant a mention that vampires dislike the moon due to it redirecting a portion of their greatest Bane down on them.

    My preferred way of having mages create sunlight would be to have a Reach option for adding Prime to any Forces spells that deal with light in order to turn it mystically into sunlight. Prime is the Arcanum dealing with Resonances and that's kinda the only thing that can differ between regular light and sunlight.

    Leave a comment:


  • proindrakenzol
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    proindrakenzol I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not... my point was just that scientifically created light with the identical physics as sunlight doesn't harm vampires.

    On the mage thing? A mage that's going for 12+ Potency can just... use a damage spell and kill you.
    The only "scientifically created light with the identical physics as sunlight" we can produce is a hydrogen bomb, so whether it harms vampires is moot, the explosion will annihilate them.

    ArcaneArts it is a lot of work, and probably won't come up, I'm just saying my personal inclination is that if you were able to boost the strength of the reflected moonlight 400k times then I think it counts as sunlight, both because I feel like it does carry the same mystic woowoo these days and because, from a meta perspective, if you've pulled it off you deserve to have it work.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    proindrakenzol I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not... my point was just that scientifically created light with the identical physics as sunlight doesn't harm vampires.

    On the mage thing? A mage that's going for 12+ Potency can just... use a damage spell and kill you.

    Leave a comment:

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