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  • For the Concentration method of Suppressible, does "Concentration 3" mean any combination of the base Magnitude and its Deviations, or just one of the two options at Magnitude 3?


    Resident Lore-Hound
    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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    • Would it be appropriate to post about homebrewed Variations/Scars here or should that be saved for a separate post under the D:tR sub-forum in the future? Just super excited about this game and have so many ideas coming to mind.

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      • Why not just start a separate thread for Homebrew Variations and Scars, and let the people setting up the new subforum move it when they're ready?


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        • Originally posted by Eric Zawadzki View Post
          Calculate the Magnitude of Relentless Variation as follows:

          • If the secondary Scar and all entangled Variations are Subtle, the Magnitude of Relentless Variation is one less than that of the secondary Scar.
          • If the secondary Scar is Subtle but at least one of the entangled Variations is Overt, the Magnitude of Relentless Variation is the higher of (secondary Scar Magnitude - 1) or the Magnitude of the highest-Magnitude Overt Variation.
          • If the secondary Scar is Overt, the Magnitude of Relentless Variation is equal to that of the secondary Scar.
          • The Magnitude of this Scar is one higher if one or more entangled Variations are likely to create story complications by being “always-on,” such as Camouflage 3+, Gigantic, Miniaturization, or Out of Phase (Body) 3.
          This feels unnecessarily complicated and, unlike the version of Relentless Variation in the backer preview, it doesn't really make sense as a Scar anymore. At the very least, some of the calculations might be easier to follow as Deviations.

          Also, I'm unsure of how this variable Magnitude is supposed to work if the Scar is unentangled, and what happens if you purchase a new Variation that changes what calculation to use (or if you apply the Disfiguring Scar Variation).

          If the secondary Scar is Subtle but at least one of the entangled Variations is Overt, the Magnitude of Relentless Variation is [...] the Magnitude of the highest-Magnitude Overt Variation.
          How do you determine the Magnitude of the secondary Scar in this case?

          Deviations
          Suppressible (-1 Magnitude): The Broken can suppress an entangled Variation until the end of the scene by one of the following means, chosen at the time the Deviant develops this Scar:
          The structure here is sound, and a clear improvement, though I'm selfishly disappointed by the reduced options, particularly the lack of Tabula Rasa.

          Overall, this version looks to be more balanced, but this comes at the cost of being harder to follow and, as a direct result, harder to use. I'm concerned about it scaring off less crunch-inclined players, whereas most other Scars and Variations are fairly concise -- even Lash, to which you compared it, is wordy but fundamentally uncomplicated.

          Running a game, I'd probably ignore this take on Relentless Variation and use the backer preview version instead.
          Last edited by The MG; 10-19-2019, 08:07 PM.

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          • Originally posted by The MG View Post
            This feels unnecessarily complicated and, unlike the version of Relentless Variation in the backer preview, it doesn't really make sense as a Scar anymore. At the very least, some of the calculations might be easier to follow as Deviations.
            I was thinking something similar: if you always have a secondary Scar that's Persistent, why not just call the secondary Scar a regular Scar and reframe this as a +1 to -1 Deviation for Persistent Scars that are entangled with Toggled-Only Variations? The four bullet points you have for calculating the Magnitude of Relentless Variation then become an issue of how much of an adjustment to the Scar Magnitude this Deviation causes. I'd simplify this to “if the Scar and all entangled Variations are Subtle, this is a -1 Deviation (but see Hardship, below); if anything is Overt, this becomes a -0 Deviation instead. Hardship: if any of the entangled Variations are particularly troublesome if you can't shut them off [insert list of such Variations here], increase this from -1 to -0 or from -0 to +1.”

            Meanwhile, the Suppressible and Unruly/Rebellious Deviations become standalone Deviations that can be applied to any Persistent Scar that's entangled with a Perpetual Variation. After all, Perpetual Variations are inherently relentless: you can't shut them off.

            Originally posted by The MG View Post
            Also, I'm unsure of how this variable Magnitude is supposed to work if the Scar is unentangled, and what happens if you purchase a new Variation that changes what calculation to use (or if you apply the Disfiguring Scar Variation).

            How do you determine the Magnitude of the secondary Scar in this case?
            My take: you can't apply this to an unentangled Scar; it can only be applied if there's at least one Variation entangled with it. The only time the Scar Magnitude if going to change is if everything is subtle and you entangle a new Overt Variation, in which case the effective Magnitude of the Scar increases by one.

            I'll comment on Suppressible later.
            Last edited by Dataweaver; 10-23-2019, 05:56 AM.


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            • Another take on Relentless Variation, this one rendering it as a trio of Standard Deviations:

              Relentless Variation
              Scar Type: Persistent
              Keywords: Toggled-Only
              -1 to +1 Magnitude: The Variation entangled with the Scar is always active, and the Remade can’t toggle it off. At best, she must take measures to bring it under control. At worst, she can’t. The Scar and all its entangled Variations are Perpetual (granting a +5 bonus to Clash of Wills rolls involving them). This is a -1 Magnitude Deviation if the Scar and all entangled Variations are Subtle, and a +0 Magnitude Deviation if the Scar and/or any of its entangled Variations is Overt. Increase the Deviation Magnitude by one if one or more entangled Variations are likely to create story complications by being “always-on,” such as Camouflage 3+, Gigantic, Miniaturization, or Out of Phase (Body) 3.

              If an entangled Tiered Variation has a constant effect (such as Bioluminescence with the Aura Deviation, or Gigantic), the Deviant’s player determines the default Magnitude of each Tiered Variation entangled with Relentless Variation at the time she chooses this Deviation. She may change the current Magnitude (as well as any applicable Deviations) of a Variation as an action, such as to dim or brighten the light her Bioluminescence (p. XX) ordinarily produces, for example, as long as she is normally able to do so.

              Directed Variations (or Directed effects of non-Directed Variations) affected by this Deviation still require an action to target. Effects limited to use once per scene/chapter/story still carry these restrictions, and those with explicit durations are still limited to them (Omnicompetence 2 doesn’t grant the option to have a dot in all Skills, constantly, for example). The Scar can entangle Reflexive Variations and those with a “menu” of capabilities that can’t reasonably remain “always on” (such as Electrokinesis), but it has little-to-no effect on them without Deviations.

              Suppressible Variation
              Scar Type: Persistent
              Keywords: Perpetual-Only
              -1 Magnitude: The Broken can suppress a Variation entangled with the Scar until the end of the scene by succeeding on a Scar Resistance roll and suffering an additional effect chosen at the time the Deviant’s player selects this Deviation. This “cost” typically resembles a Controlled Scar of Magnitude 3 (or occasionally more), with the following being typical:

              Concentration: Suppressing an entangled Variation follows the same rules as activating one entangled with the Concentration (Tenuous) 3 Controlled Scar (p. XX).
              Depletion: The Broken can only suppress an entangled Variation for a number of minutes (turns, in action scenes) equal to Scar Resistance and may only do so once per scene, although Adaptations can overcome this.
              Deterioration: Suppressing an entangled Variation follows the same rules as activating one entangled with the Deterioration (Lingering) 3 Controlled Scar (p. XX).
              Perilous: The Broken suffers a point of lethal damage when suppressing an entangled Variation.
              Power Failure: Suppressing an entangled Variation follows similar rules as activating one entangled with the Power Failure Scar (p. XX). See the sidebar for details
              Preparation: Suppressing an entangled Variation follows the same rules as activating one entangled with the Preparation (Elaborate) 3 Controlled Scar (p. XX).
              Tribulation: The Deviant must spend a point of Willpower to suppress an entangled Variation.
              Unstable: The Remade suffers a minor Instability each time he suppresses an entangled Variation.

              Suppressible Variation and Power Failure
              When using Suppressible Deviation, Power Failure is a special case, reflecting as it does some countermeasure or suppression device the Broken uses to tamp down her unruly Variations — such as a special article of clothing, continual exposure to a radio signal, or regular injections of a stabilizing serum. While this is their main purpose within the story, an enemy could deploy them to disable the transformed’s Variations, or the Deviant might find herself in an environment where the countermeasures are in place and she can’t remove them in order to use her Variations. Thus, the Power Failure option for Relentless Variation is a double-edged sword.

              For that reason, the countermeasure can be as easy to bring into play (or as rare and difficult to apply) as the player wishes. The player similarly decides the following at the time he purchases this Scar:

              Off: Does application of the countermeasure neutralize the Variation immediately, or does it take time to do so? If gradual, does the Variation lose Magnitude every interval of time (measured in turns in action scenes, minutes in other scenes), or does it switch off on a delay?
              On: Does removal of the countermeasure cause the Variation to manifest at full strength immediately, or does it take time to do so? If gradual, does the Variation gain Magnitude every interval of time (turns in action scenes, minutes in other scenes), or does it switch on after the delay?
              Minimum: Once the countermeasure is removed, can it be reapplied right away, or is it impossible to do so for a period of time (measured in turns in action scenes, minutes in other scenes) or until the end of the scene?

              Unruly Variation
              Scar Type: Persistent
              Keywords: Directed-Only, Perpetual-Only
              +1 Magnitude: Once per chapter, as long as the Variation is active (not neutralized by the Untamed Adaptation or the Mimicry Variation, for example), the Storyteller may direct an entangled Variation for a single turn during which the Deviant did not do so, either choosing its target or selecting one at random. The Broken’s player may resist this effect with a Scar Resistance roll. If this roll succeeds, the Storyteller may make another direction attempt in a later scene but may not attempt to direct this Variation again during the current scene. Each consecutive successful roll to resist Storyteller direction imposes a -1 penalty on future rolls to resist this effect.

              Rebellious (+1 Magnitude): As above, but if the Storyteller successfully directs an entangled Variation, he may continue directing it on subsequent turns until the end of the scene or until the Deviant’s player makes a successful Scar Resistance roll to regain control. Each consecutive failed Scar Resistance roll to regain control grants a +1 penalty on later rolls to wrest back control.
              Last edited by Eric Zawadzki; 10-20-2019, 10:16 AM. Reason: Suppressible Variation, not Suppressible Scar


              Onyx Path Freelancer and Fantasy Author

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              • (Nitpick: Suppressible Variation, not Suppressible Scar.)

                I would like to point out that in this structure, Relentless Variation and Suppressible Variation are almost polar opposites. Almost. Relentless Variation turns a Toggled Variation into a Perpetual Variation; Suppressible Variation turns a Perpetual Variation into something not unlike a Toggled Variation. The main difference is that you need to use the equivalent of a Controlled Scar to “toggle” it.

                This isn't a criticism; just an observation. I rather like the resulting dynamic. That said, theoretically, it implies that there might be a place for a more “severe” version of Suppressible Variation that actually is the mirror opposite of Relentless Variation, converting a Perpetual Variation into an honest to goodness Toggled Variation, with no need to use a Controlled Scar to shut it off. Theoretically. In practice, let's not go there. I'm assuming that the decision to take certain Variations as Toggled and others as Perpetual was made with care, and that the ones that were called Perpetual were selected as such because being able to just turn them off at will and without paying any sort of price for doing so was deemed to be problematic. So with that in mind, let's not even entertain the notion of being able to make a Perpetual Variation Toggled instead; Suppressible is as close as we should get to that.

                Unruly Variation: I'd ditch the Perpetual-Only Keyword. The idea behind Unruly Variation is that a Directed Variation may end up targeting people that you don't want it to when it's active. Applying this to a Toggled Variation may make the Deviant less inclined to toggle it on; but that's not an abuse of the rules. Allow it.

                In fact, consider allowing it for Involuntary Scars as well as Persistent Scars: basically, Unruly Variation gives you a way around the “Directed Variations can't be entangled with this” restriction. If the player doesn't get to choose who the Variation is directed at, it seems entirely appropriate for an Involuntary Scar to activate a Directed Variation.

                I still haven't had time to digest the exact mechanics for Suppressible Variation; so I'll say more on that a bit later.


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                • Relentless Variation
                  I like it. The calculations aren't actually different from before, but they're a lot easier to read with this presentation.

                  It's still pretty verbose – I didn't mind the preview Relentless' restriction on Directed Variations, myself – but I don't think that will get in the way of using it.

                  Suppressible Scar
                  It was good before and it's good now. I really appreciate the expanded options; thank you for that.

                  Unruly Variation
                  I'm going to echo Dataweaver here, but go one step further: this could be merged into the extant Rebellious Variation to create a Deviation with Scar Type: Any, possibly with the current Unruly effect as a sub-Deviation locked to Persistent and Perpetual Variations alongside this take's Rebellious sub-Deviation.

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                  • Hm. I have a question for Eric based on this. Would it be possible to have a power EXCLUSIVELY paid for by Deviations? Because now I have a few ideas based on that idea.

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                    • Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                      (Nitpick: Suppressible Variation, not Suppressible Scar.)

                      I would like to point out that in this structure, Relentless Variation and Suppressible Variation are almost polar opposites. Almost. Relentless Variation turns a Toggled Variation into a Perpetual Variation; Suppressible Variation turns a Perpetual Variation into something not unlike a Toggled Variation. The main difference is that you need to use the equivalent of a Controlled Scar to “toggle” it.

                      This isn't a criticism; just an observation. I rather like the resulting dynamic. That said, theoretically, it implies that there might be a place for a more “severe” version of Suppressible Variation that actually is the mirror opposite of Relentless Variation, converting a Perpetual Variation into an honest to goodness Toggled Variation, with no need to use a Controlled Scar to shut it off. Theoretically. In practice, let's not go there. I'm assuming that the decision to take certain Variations as Toggled and others as Perpetual was made with care, and that the ones that were called Perpetual were selected as such because being able to just turn them off at will and without paying any sort of price for doing so was deemed to be problematic. So with that in mind, let's not even entertain the notion of being able to make a Perpetual Variation Toggled instead; Suppressible is as close as we should get to that.

                      Unruly Variation: I'd ditch the Perpetual-Only Keyword. The idea behind Unruly Variation is that a Directed Variation may end up targeting people that you don't want it to when it's active. Applying this to a Toggled Variation may make the Deviant less inclined to toggle it on; but that's not an abuse of the rules. Allow it.

                      In fact, consider allowing it for Involuntary Scars as well as Persistent Scars: basically, Unruly Variation gives you a way around the “Directed Variations can't be entangled with this” restriction. If the player doesn't get to choose who the Variation is directed at, it seems entirely appropriate for an Involuntary Scar to activate a Directed Variation.

                      I still haven't had time to digest the exact mechanics for Suppressible Variation; so I'll say more on that a bit later.
                      (Fixed.)

                      The choice of whether to make a Variation Perpetual usually came down to whether it was Subtle and not Directed. Bear in mind I was operating under the assumption that Relentless Variation was going to increase the Magnitude of a Scar because Perpetual created more complications. The goal of the Perpetual keyword was in large part to prevent people from abusing Relentless Variation by entangling it with something that carried no downside for being on all the time, since it was Subtle. That assumption was ultimately mistaken, since Perpetual is usually a net benefit due to action economy, and people are less likely to take Relentless "for the free dots" than I feared. Under the Deviations model, Subtle Variations with the Perpetual keyword natively are more valuable, since they save you having to bolt Relentless Variation onto them at a net reduction in the Scar's Magnitude.

                      I might, in fact, need to review each Perpetual Variation to determine whether it still needs to be Perpetual in order for it to make sense. Rapid Healing, for example, relies on the passage of narrative time for its effects, and several Anomalous Biology effects are similarly nonsensical as a Toggled power, so those will stay as is. Carapace and Pheromones, meanwhile, might lose the Keyword (not certainly, but it's something to consider. So, I'm unlikely to make a clean "a Perpetual Variation is now Toggled" Deviation for that reason.

                      RE Unruly: I think I'll leave this one as-is. Involuntary already has Rebellious Variation, in addition to Deviations specific to individual Scars, that do something similar things, so I'm not worried about them. The issue with letting Controlled Variations get in on the fun is that when you activate a Directed Variation, you're likely to use it every turn, or you're at least in a scene where it is potentially useful even if it doesn't necessarily hit a target you'd intended to affect. Healing Touch (which is now Directed) is going to be activated when there is someone to heal (and often when no one you don't want healed is around), while "ignoring" your active Telekinesis to use something else when you're in a target-rich environment might mean you get lucky and it attacks someone you wouldn't mind hurting anyway. This doesn't give the Storyteller as many opportunities to show your power going out of control as a Variation that is always active and therefore always available to complicate a scene (unless you pay Suppressible's price to tamp it down for a little while).

                      The current version has lost the "cannot be entangled with Directed Variations" language. Directed Variations don't get much of a benefit for being made Relentless, with the exception of having your Ranged Lash "always unsheathed" (not a truly Directed Variation, but one that behaves that way in many respects).

                      RE Suppressible: Looking forward to your feedback.

                      Originally posted by The MG View Post
                      I like it. The calculations aren't actually different from before, but they're a lot easier to read with this presentation.

                      It's still pretty verbose – I didn't mind the preview Relentless' restriction on Directed Variations, myself – but I don't think that will get in the way of using it.

                      It was good before and it's good now. I really appreciate the expanded options; thank you for that.

                      I'm going to echo Dataweaver here, but go one step further: this could be merged into the extant Rebellious Variation to create a Deviation with Scar Type: Any, possibly with the current Unruly effect as a sub-Deviation locked to Persistent and Perpetual Variations alongside this take's Rebellious sub-Deviation.
                      Deviations are structured differently than Variations, so the "pick A or B" format wouldn't be great here. The effects are sufficiently different that I wouldn't want to combine them into a single Deviation, and since they're both Deviations, it's easy to grab both if that's the concept you're going for.

                      Originally posted by SdeSpencer View Post
                      Hm. I have a question for Eric based on this. Would it be possible to have a power EXCLUSIVELY paid for by Deviations? Because now I have a few ideas based on that idea.
                      I'm not shooting it down as a concept, but I'm unlikely to do this within the core. Mostly, having to explain how this works (and how it doesn't) in writing would be complicated and eat a lot of words for something I just can't see that many people wanting to do.


                      Onyx Path Freelancer and Fantasy Author

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                      • This is several weeks late to ask, I think, but concerning the Invasive add-on to the Clades Companion: Is it likely or possible that the weirder gear examples we'll be getting in that might include something along the lines of engineered or jury-rigged environment suits for characters with Scars like Native Environment or Involuntary Stimulus or Power Failure?


                        Resident Lore-Hound
                        Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                        • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                          This is several weeks late to ask, I think, but concerning the Invasive add-on to the Clades Companion: Is it likely or possible that the weirder gear examples we'll be getting in that might include something along the lines of engineered or jury-rigged environment suits for characters with Scars like Native Environment or Involuntary Stimulus or Power Failure?
                          Not too late, actually. It's a good idea, and it's a one-sentence ask in the working outline.


                          Onyx Path Freelancer and Fantasy Author

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                          • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            This is several weeks late to ask, I think, but concerning the Invasive add-on to the Clades Companion: Is it likely or possible that the weirder gear examples we'll be getting in that might include something along the lines of engineered or jury-rigged environment suits for characters with Scars like Native Environment or Involuntary Stimulus or Power Failure?
                            Originally posted by Eric Zawadzki View Post

                            Not too late, actually. It's a good idea, and it's a one-sentence ask in the working outline.
                            I want to make Mr Freeze, please.

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                            • Originally posted by Eric Zawadzki View Post

                              Not too late, actually. It's a good idea, and it's a one-sentence ask in the working outline.
                              While we're talking broad concepts that haven't been covered and which supplement material might one day facilitate, one concept I tried to work out mechanically was a character with an inhuman Conspicuous Appearance, who could only take on human semblance by stealing one from others a la Face Thief. My first assumption was that Mimicry would cover that and then it would take some clever choices of Controlled or Involuntary Scars with conditional factors, but it doesn't look like an intended use of Mimicry to keep reactivating it at the end of every scene.

                              In general, Mimicry is one I struggle with conceptually, and I wonder if it's even possible to use structures like the new versions of Suppressible and so on to do its job purely through entangled Scars and Deviations. It doesn't help that its most obvious application is already covered well by Hybrid Form, and that dots of Mimicry alone eat into your Variation budget, while Hybrid Form is actually budget-efficient. It feels like a very poor cousin.
                              Last edited by Stupid Loserman; 10-23-2019, 02:50 AM.

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                              • Speaking of Suppressible, here's my counterproposal, followed by my reasoning for the changes:

                                Suppressible Variation
                                Scar Type: Persistent
                                Keywords: Perpetual-Only
                                -0 Magnitude: The Broken can suppress a Variation entangled with the Scar until the end of the scene by succeeding on a Scar Resistance roll and replacing the Scar with a Controlled Scar (called the suppressant) for the duration. The suppressant is chosen at the time the Deviant’s player selects this Deviation, and has the same Magnitude as the Scar that the Deviation is applied to. The suppressant works as normal, except that “activate” and “deactivate” become “suppress” and “restore”.

                                There are a few Controlled Scars that don't work as suppressants: Cooldown is all about what happens when you redirect a Directed Variation, which doesn't make sense when it's suppressed; and Fluctuating Variation deals with a fluctuating Magnitude for an active Variation, which doesn't make sense when the Variation is suppressed. So you can't use either of these as a suppressant.
                                Suppressible Variation and Power Failure
                                When using Suppressible Variation, Power Failure is a special case, reflecting as it does some countermeasure or suppression device the Broken uses to tamp down her unruly Variations — such as a special article of clothing, continual exposure to a radio signal, or regular injections of a stabilizing serum. While this is their main purpose within the story, an enemy could deploy them to disable the transformed’s Variations, or the Deviant might find herself in an environment where the countermeasures are in place and she can’t remove them in order to use her Variations. Thus, the Power Failure option for Relentless Variation is a double-edged sword.

                                For that reason, Power Failure is always treated as a Magnitude ••• Scar when it is used as a suppressant, and the Common and Rare Deviations are not allowed. However, the countermeasure can be as easy to bring into play (or as rare and difficult to apply) as the player wishes. The player decides the following at the time he purchases this Scar:

                                Off: Does application of the countermeasure neutralize the Variation immediately, or does it take time to do so? If gradual, does the Variation lose Magnitude every interval of time (measured in turns in action scenes, minutes in other scenes), or does it switch off on a delay?
                                On: Does removal of the countermeasure cause the Variation to manifest at full strength immediately, or does it take time to do so? If gradual, does the Variation gain Magnitude every interval of time (turns in action scenes, minutes in other scenes), or does it switch on after the delay?
                                Minimum: Once the countermeasure is removed, can it be reapplied right away, or is it impossible to do so for a period of time (measured in turns in action scenes, minutes in other scenes) or until the end of the scene?
                                ---

                                The original text where you take a secondary Perpetual Scar when the Relentless Variation is Inescapable and a secondary Controlled Scar when it's Suppressible was broken; but you can achieve a similar effect that isn't broken by saying that a Suppressible Variation always has one Scar in play: the Persistent Scar (when it's not suppressed) or an alternate Controlled Scar with the same Magnitude (when it is). This can apply to nearly any Controlled Scar, including Persistent Drawback (which lets you replace the usual Scar with a different Persistent Scar while the Variation is suppressed) and Tabula Rasa (which results in memory loss pertaining to the time that the Variation was suppressed).

                                But if you make this change, Suppressible Variation becomes a mixed blessing, as you can use it to swap out one Scar for another. This is why I lowered the value of Suppressible Variation from -1 to -0 in my proposal.

                                Instead of saying that the suppressant works like a Magnitude 3 Controlled Scar (which is rigid, and allows for Magnitude 4+ Variations to be suppressed with a Magnitude 3 Scar), I'm instead going back to the original idea that the suppressant has the same Magnitude as the Scar that it substitutes for. This is cleaner and more flexible. With this return to variable-Magnitude suppressants, the text for Relentless Variation and Power Failure also reverts to its original form.

                                The other big change I made was to focus on those Controlled Scars that don't make sense as suppressants instead of spending a lot of redundant word count spelling out all of the Controlled Scars that do: the “burden of proof”, as it were, should be on “why can't I use X?” If you don't list a given Controlled Scar as inappropriate for use as a suppressant (and explain why it's inappropriate), then the players should assume that it's possible to use it and apply their creative juices to figuring out how.

                                I would recommend that this be considered in future supplements when new Controlled Scars are introduced: if they don't make sense as suppressants (like Cooldown or Fluctuating Variation) or need to be tweaked (like Power Failure), then the write-up of the new Scar should mention that. You might even consider setting precedent for that by moving the “Suppressible Variation and Power Failure” box from the Suppressible Variation write-up to the Power Failure write-up.
                                Last edited by Dataweaver; 10-23-2019, 06:01 AM.


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