Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Are Ghosts the same People as when they were alive?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Are Ghosts the same People as when they were alive?

    I want to say at least one of the editions of Mage the Awakening says that Ghosts aren’t really considered the same as the person they were (and I think most mages don’t even consider them people at all) ...but, IIrc, the new edition of Geist has you playing a Ghost that’s animating their old body, and I think it explicitly says that you’re still you.

    So, I’m a little confused about which is “correct” and whether or not things have changed or if I just misread or misinterpreted something.

    Also, if you could give me a page number to reference or a quote from a Writer or Dev that would be appreciated, since I’m looking for the “canonical” answer about this.


    ....

  • #2
    Geist 2e has a passage that's surprisingly explicit about this on p. 185, describing ghosts as echoes or copies left behind of a person when they die, though clearly taking the position that while a ghost is not the same person who died to leave it behind, the ghost is still very much a person.

    There are various curiosities in Mage and Geist that this makes possible, like the Create Ghost spell and the existence in Geist of doppelgangers, ghosts generated by near-death experiences.

    Comment


    • #3
      Ghosts operate under the philosophical problem of the Teleporter Problem. The process of creating a ghost almost always coincides with that person dying, but doesn't have to - and in cases where it doesn't, you end up with the living (however badly injured, comatose, or life-alteringly shaken they are) person and their ghost, who has all their memories until the point of divergence.

      Which one's the "real" person?

      Sin-Eaters firmly come down on the side of "both of them".


      (EDIT: the usual supernatural/urban fantasy way of cheating this kind of insoluble problem is to say "well, the one with the soul is obviously the real one" or somesuch. But you can't say that in the Chronicles of Darkness, because the soul vanishes upon death. Kill someone, they make a ghost,. bring them back to life, and you have both a ghost of that person and a living version. Neither of them have continuity of consciousness (which is, scientifically speaking, a crock anyway), and neither of them have a soul. Your move, armchair philosophers!)
      Last edited by Dave Brookshaw; 10-17-2019, 04:24 PM.


      Dave Brookshaw

      Comment


      • #4
        Not all Bound are protagonists sin-eaters. Other Bound might view ghosts differently.

        Also, don't some non-Mage forms of resurrection avoid the no soul problem?

        Comment


        • #5
          I think that ghosts are definitely the same people they were- they are an echo, a shadow, an afterimage of the person who died. They are everything which he was, even though they could never become anything more.. at least, not without sacrifice a portion of who they are by drinking from the Rivers of the Underworld. And even that is only a mask- something to cover up the fact that they are dead, and could never be more than dead. They are past and gone, a fleeting memory desperately holding to the life it knew, fearing oblivion more than anything else.

          Only be sacrificing their own memories and donning masks, either their own or those stolen from other dead people, they can be something other than "the people they once were". Only by binding with a dying person, they can truly grow beyond that mask, and become something else. And only by moving on, they could finally leave who they were, and go to the unknown, and who knows what waits for them there.

          So in short, yes, ghosts are the people they once were before their death, be it an actual death or a metaphorical one. A person can go through a terrible accident, and come out as a different person than they were before, and still leave a ghost behind (like in that anime, Golden Time). They would still be everything that person was up until that accident, and by that they are still that person- only stuck at that moment. In fact, ghosts are defined as "being that person until moment X happened which changed their life forever". They can't grow beyond that point, at least not without the drastic measures seen above, but they are still that person- so be nice to them. They may be just memories, but who are we if not just the collective of all of out own memories? If the future does not really exist, and the present is ever fleeting, and all that we have is an endless continuation of long, dead past which we could never change, who is it to say we are not all nothing but ghosts, trapped in a mortal coil?


          Check my STV content, Or My Homebrew

          "And all our knowledge is, Ourselves to know"- An Essay on Man

          I now blog in here

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
            Geist 2e has a passage that's surprisingly explicit about this on p. 185, describing ghosts as echoes or copies left behind of a person when they die, though clearly taking the position that while a ghost is not the same person who died to leave it behind, the ghost is still very much a person.

            There are various curiosities in Mage and Geist that this makes possible, like the Create Ghost spell and the existence in Geist of doppelgangers, ghosts generated by near-death experiences.

            ...And now I’m imagining a Changeling who has both a Fetch and a Doppleganger running around somehow. I wonder how many other ways there are of duplicating people in this game?


            ....

            Comment


            • #7
              Also, thanks to everyone for clarifying this for me.


              ....

              Comment

              Working...
              X