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  • Taidragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

    This has a price and the price is it's useless on land, it's a trade off on utility instead of resources. If it was spend glamour to use these abilities it would be awful, this keeps it balance. They made it clear their would be exceptions for just this sort of circumstance. I see it less as inconsistance, and more using the loophole that was intended for just this sort of circumstance.
    You have absolutely no idea how low a bar of entry "Kith Trickery is useless outside the niche it's designed for, so thus doesn't need any resources, die rolls, restrictions on how many times it can be used or other circumstances for activation" is, do you?

    Originally I was fine with leaving the Nymph kith as written to be just something of an outlier and something I'd recommend changing, but now that I've been told that it's totally balanced and fair with how all others are written four times in a row, I've taken to thinking this over more closely.

    Of the official 18 Kiths presented, including the six introduced in Dark Eras 2, 12 of them are absolutely useless for their Trickeries if they're left alone, 10 of those can't even use their Kith Blessings if alone, six of these can't use their Trickeries if among friends because they're detrimental, and one only affects humans. All of them barring the Playmate and Notary Kiths require Glamour and a die roll to activate, and only the Notary is without needing glamour at all - notably, both Playmate and Notary are Kiths that benefits others.

    Mirrorskin is a Kith that allows a Changeling to change their Mask and even Mien to become a composite of those the Changeling has encountered and seen in pictures. This requires a point of Glamour (two if the Changeling wants to affect their Mien as well), a reflexive Wits + Subterfuge + Wyrd roll and lasts indefinitely... and has to be used again if the Changeling wants to look like their normal appearance again.

    Dryad is a Kith that requires large foliage at the bare minimum to use their Kith Blessing and Trickery, only to remain perfectly hidden when still and adding their Wyrd to Stealth rolls when they are moving. This power requires a Glamour and at the very least a large foliage, something that can range from "easy to find" to "where in the concrete jungle am I supposed to find a single shrub big enough to hide behind with any level of usefulness".

    Nymph as currently written allows the Changeling to choose between having a tail or legs, swimming at double their speed, "Magic" that lets them breath air and water equally well, and no penalties for using weapons or performing complicated tasks underwater. All of this is without any form of duration, resources required or number of times it can be used in a turn/scene/session/story; even choosing between a tail or legs doesn't have any conditions on it beyond "[they] last until he wills them away". If this is truly the bar of entry for a free Trickery, then all the Kiths above need some very serious reworking as well as the rules I quoted earlier. As it stands the Nymph Kith is actually pretty grossly overpowered for granting Contract level powers without any requirements for upkeep, especially if combined with actual Contracts that augment the Changeling with weapons or increased speed/damage (Talon And Wing springs to mind).

    Now that I have gone over my research, I shall no longer be looking to discussing the Nymph Kith as written simply because I am losing my patience for the topic. When I wrote that the Nymph Kith was "weird" it meant "unusual, a departure from the norm, strange", not "overpowered" as a certain poster has presumed and has continued to emphasize. Is it petty to go this in-depth on the topic? Most likely, but, as noted, my patience is being very sorely tried.

    My apologies for everyone else getting this argument over a small part of a much larger book, in a thread meant to be excited about the Dark Eras 2 book and how much closer it is to release. I had hoped to inspire a more constructive conversation, but it seems all I've done is gotten myself frustrated.

    Edit: I will be the first to say I went way too aggressive in tone, and my argument is flawed (being alone isn’t equatable to being underwater). As such, I would like to apologize for the tone of the above post and for taking the discussion too seriously without sending an errata ticket (which has been done now). I stand by what I was trying to convey, however - the difficulty in finding an underwater scenario is not so hard and concrete that the Kith’s Trickery deserves to be without resources, an activation die roll, explicit duration, restricted activations during a particular frame of time, and or other conditions in order to activate. It doesn’t need all of the aforementioned traits, naturally, but something to balance it would help prevent setting a bad precedent for future Kiths when the initial Kiths have been noted in being... restrained compared to others due to their own costs/restrictions, and for far fewer benefits.

    However, it is in the dev’s hands now, and if they leave the Nymph Kith as is, I won’t argue about it. I won’t like it, but it will be what it is.
    Last edited by Taidragon; 01-20-2020, 04:28 AM.

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  • Kvark
    replied
    Originally posted by Kvark View Post

    The PDF preorder, yeah? Sorry for the many questions, I've not participated in a Kickstarter in many years.
    For those who are interested, I just went through the process. You'll go to this link: https://chronicles-of-darkness-dark-...sted_preorders , then order the PDF pre order, then after you pay you'll get a link to make the $0.00 purchase on Drivethrurph, and after completing the purchase there, you'll get the digital download of the advance PDF.

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  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by Taidragon View Post

    And again, you're willfully ignoring what I am talking about. This is about consistency, not being overpowered. In Changeling everything has a price, be it glamour, willpower, effort in the effect of a roll or some environmental condition that has to be met. However, the Kith specifies that "magic" keeps the Changeling able to see and breath underwater but no condition where this magic won't work, just an obvious reasoning why it shouldn't be used on land. That's not consistent at all with the other powers and aspects of Changeling - that's something out of Beast: The Primordial (almost literally). I am not saying it should be removed or even changed much if it all, just that it feels weird to have it in this state. You are the only one citing it being overpowered (even if in saying it isn't).

    Incidentally, your reason for it not being overpowered doesn't hold water. All kiths have their niche where are their Trickeries are useful, but they still have costs and conditions to use them. Just being useful underwater doesn't exempt Nymphs from this nor the possibility of being overpowered.
    This has a price and the price is it's useless on land, it's a trade off on utility instead of resources. If it was spend glamour to use these abilities it would be awful, this keeps it balance. They made it clear their would be exceptions for just this sort of circumstance. I see it less as inconsistance, and more using the loophole that was intended for just this sort of circumstance.

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  • Taidragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

    There are functional reasons for it and it's not over powered.
    And again, you're willfully ignoring what I am talking about. This is about consistency, not being overpowered. In Changeling everything has a price, be it glamour, willpower, effort in the effect of a roll or some environmental condition that has to be met. However, the Kith specifies that "magic" keeps the Changeling able to see and breath underwater but no condition where this magic won't work, just an obvious reasoning why it shouldn't be used on land. That's not consistent at all with the other powers and aspects of Changeling - that's something out of Beast: The Primordial (almost literally). I am not saying it should be removed or even changed much if it all, just that it feels weird to have it in this state. You are the only one citing it being overpowered (even if in saying it isn't).

    Incidentally, your reason for it not being overpowered doesn't hold water. All kiths have their niche where are their Trickeries are useful, but they still have costs and conditions to use them. Just being useful underwater doesn't exempt Nymphs from this nor the possibility of being overpowered.
    Last edited by Taidragon; 01-19-2020, 12:58 PM.

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  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by Taidragon View Post

    The problem wasn't balance, it was how it isn't following the other Kith Trickeries by doing something far closer to 1e than 2e.



    That is from the Kith creation rules, and while it does say "most commonly" none others have effects that just work like this one.
    There are functional reasons for it and it's not over powered.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by LostLight View Post
    well, the name Ascending Ones is indeed out of place, but as far as I can tell from Witch Finders, I think that the Cult of the Phoenix existed long before Hunger in the Black Land. Nitocris is dated to the 6th Dynasty, which puts them between 2345 and 2181 BC. So yeah, the name Ascending Ones is out of place (or, more exactly, out of era), but the Cult should have existed during that time.
    Right, I should have made that clearer-I was referring directly to the Cult of the Phoenix being the Ascending Ones prior to the fall of the Cult of Set.

    In relation to that, it's neat to see mehket as a common word for the blood drinking undead before what is one of the more commonly accepted points of origin for the Mehket proper.

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  • LostLight
    replied
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    I'm fairly certain the actual Cult of the Phoenix hasn't emerged in Hunger in the Black Lands. Perhaps a progentior to them, but it's weird to read about the Ascending Ones prior to being the Ascending Ones.

    Minor gripe, but it did trip me.
    well, the name Ascending Ones is indeed out of place, but as far as I can tell from Witch Finders, I think that the Cult of the Phoenix existed long before Hunger in the Black Land. Nitocris is dated to the 6th Dynasty, which puts them between 2345 and 2181 BC. So yeah, the name Ascending Ones is out of place (or, more exactly, out of era), but the Cult should have existed during that time.

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  • LostLight
    replied
    I must say that I was a bit surprised to see the Council of Bones getting mentioned in 1001 Nightmares. I mean, I was sure that they were a relatively young conspiracy, especially as their name is pretty simple compared to the other 3rd Tier groups. Now I wonder how old the Council actually is...

    Leave a comment:


  • Second Chances
    replied
    Originally posted by Kvark View Post

    The PDF preorder, yeah? Sorry for the many questions, I've not participated in a Kickstarter in many years.
    I believe so. When I used Backerkit to pick up Scion, PDFs and hardcopies were ordered as separate items. Nothing says DE2 has to be the same, but I suspect it will work the same way.

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  • Kvark
    replied
    Originally posted by White Oak Dragon View Post

    Go to the KS page, and use the link to get to Backerkit. You can preorder it there.
    The PDF preorder, yeah? Sorry for the many questions, I've not participated in a Kickstarter in many years.

    Leave a comment:


  • White Oak Dragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Kvark View Post
    So uh, dumb question I'm sure but, for those of us who missed the KS, is there a way to buy the advance PDF now?
    Go to the KS page, and use the link to get to Backerkit. You can preorder it there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taidragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Omegaphallic View Post

    The nymph's trickery as you call it is balanced out by being nearly useless when on dry land which most of the time in a game, so it doesn't need a cost to use. Seriously it's awesomeness in water is balanced out ny the fact that play is mostly on land I believe, where at best it gets a neat party trick of turning it's legs into a tail and back. So it balanced.
    The problem wasn't balance, it was how it isn't following the other Kith Trickeries by doing something far closer to 1e than 2e.

    Trickery: Each kith harnesses a unique power in pursuit of its members’ task. Using this power requires conscious effort. Most commonly, this is represented by spending one Glamour point and making an Attribute + Skill roll: A Helldiver can become immate- rial after spending a Glamour and rolling Dexterity + Occult. Exceptions to this ex- ist depending on the kith’s function.
    That is from the Kith creation rules, and while it does say "most commonly" none others have effects that just work like this one.

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  • Kvark
    replied
    So uh, dumb question I'm sure but, for those of us who missed the KS, is there a way to buy the advance PDF now?

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    As we are at mechanical problems - in 1001 Nightmares, i.e. Golden Age of Islam era - we have:

    'The mosque suppresses supernatural influence on the mind, including the Dominate Discipline and Begotten
    Nightmares (prompting a Clash of Wills),'


    And number of dices in Clash of Wills is not pointed here. What it is?

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  • lnodiv
    replied
    Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
    Is it just me, or is the term “checks” something that generally isn’t in CofD? Because I am seeing a lot of “checks” in reference to die rolls in the Seven Wonders entry, and it feels really... kind of off-putting.
    It's not just you. CofD doesn't use checks - the word comes up exactly zero times in the core where dice mechanics are concerned.

    Originally posted by Taidragon View Post
    it requires a number of successes to get an answer that the ST gives a number of successes for, and since it appears to be a single roll
    We saw this sort of thing quite a bit in the Contagion Chronicle drafts, and a fair bit in other product previews.

    Simple, uncontested rolls require a single success in this system.
    This is not World of Darkness.
    If your mechanic requires more than a single success, consider if you can accomplish your goal through dice penalties instead.


    I feel like this needs to be enshrined and bolded in the writer's guides at this point. Yes, there are (vanishingly few) exceptions, but we shouldn't be seeing them with the frequency we have in recent product previews.

    Thankfully, these instances have all been in preview products, not final ones, and the team has been very responsive to feedback.
    Last edited by lnodiv; 01-18-2020, 12:45 PM.

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