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[2E] Ephemeral Beings without Twilight Form?

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  • [2E] Ephemeral Beings without Twilight Form?

    Is there possibility of existence Ephemerals without Twilight Form? I'm doing my own Contagion of Being and one of repercussions of it is that Ephemeral Beings lose their Manifestations.

    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Loss of Manifestations – Slow disappearance of Twilight Form, Reaching, Fetter and Posses or Claim makes ephemerals not possible to affect humans – so no healing, blessings and overwatching of spiritual entities of humanity. More deadly accidents, weaker tools, and first and foremost – no influence of ghosts and spirits on the mortals. People are becoming more and more agnostic in their worships.
    I prepare now encounter for my Werewolf players where they meet spirit Totem of enemy pack that is passed the level of this Manifestations loss. I just wonder is it possible for it to not have Twilight Form then? Missing any other Manifestation, he basically can only be in Twilight. If he lose Twilight Form also, he... cease to exist? Is sended instantly to Shadow Realm? What should happen with being like this one?


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  • #2
    Twilight Form is technically a Manifestation, but it's never treated as one by anything else in the game and it really shouldn't be lumped in with Manifestations. It's simply how ephemeral entities are, just like humans are physical.

    If you still want to remove Twilight Form, then you could just have the entity act as if it's in a place where there's no Twilight; i.e. it is for all intents and purposes Materialised but without the underlying Condition.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
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    • #3
      Hmm, so leaving Ephemeral with only Twilight Form will be enough? Without other Manifestations it cannot interact with material world in any meaningful way, yes? As Totem is within Spirits Twilight it cannot use Reach to use it Numina or Influences on anything living?


      My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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      • #4
        The Reaching Manifestation is only for using Influences and Numina across the Gauntlet. If it's already on this side of the Gauntlet it can use its Influences and Numina freely (except for Numina that specifically requires certain interactions, such as speaking to the victim) even while in Twilight Form.

        Edit: Otherwise ghosts and angels would almost never be able to use Influence and Numina since they don't get access to Reaching and often can't build Manifestation Conditions without using Influences while in Twilight Form.
        Last edited by Tessie; 03-05-2020, 07:11 AM.


        Bloodline: The Stygians
        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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        • #5
          Twilight Form is for having a body in Twilight. Technically, you could lack it, and thus be unable to interact with anything else, similar to projecting Psychics.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
            Twilight Form is for having a body in Twilight. Technically, you could lack it, and thus be unable to interact with anything else, similar to projecting Psychics.
            Despite my grievances with Twilight Form, the text is pretty clear that it's for entering Twilight at all when entering the material world rather than what rules you play by when in Twilight. Without it, you're not in Twilight. I.e. you're as physically present as if you were in the Shadow.
            What you're suggesting sounds like it would annihilate the entity because it won't have either a physical body (which is the source of a psychic projection) nor an ephemeral corpus.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
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            • #7
              Maybe you force them to physically manifest if they have the Essence and the area is Resonant. Otherwise they Discorporate or are banished to the Hisil.


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              • #8
                So, to sum up, we have two resolutions:
                1. Ephemerals have Twilight Form. They still can use Numina and Influences. By this, solution not very looked by me.
                2. Ephemerals do not have Twilight Form. It simply cannot exists in Twilight then, as it miss 'body' in this realm. Ephemeral is banished to it's original realm - for example, spirits are banished to Hisil.

                Is this analysis correct?


                My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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                • #9
                  If you want an example, Goetia are infamous for having no Manifestations. 'Goetia cannot naturally Manifest, and must be granted the ability to do so through magic.' Which I believed kicked off some of the arguments about 'what is Twilight Form?' in the Mage channel.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nofather View Post
                    If you want an example, Goetia are infamous for having no Manifestations. 'Goetia cannot naturally Manifest, and must be granted the ability to do so through magic.' Which I believed kicked off some of the arguments about 'what is Twilight Form?' in the Mage channel.
                    Which was an error in Mage since it was corrected in BPG where they finally got Twilight Form. I still maintain that it shouldn't be considered a Manifestation, but at that point it had to be added for consistency.

                    Twilight Form is listed as a Manifestation, but everything about Twilight Form is written from the position that it's the natural state of all ephemeral entities in the material world, just like how being physical is the natural state of all humans. Considering it a power in its own right doesn't make sense because it's simply just the default state.
                    Last edited by Tessie; 03-05-2020, 07:13 PM.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
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                    • #11
                      Hedge Ghosts are as close as you get to not having a Twilight Form: pull them out of the Hedge, and they very quickly fade away.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                        Hedge Ghosts are as close as you get to not having a Twilight Form: pull them out of the Hedge, and they very quickly fade away.
                        Hedge Ghosts are explicitly, specifically, and inexplicably not ephemeral entities (nor do they use Twilight despite the fact that Twilight is the go-to rules system for incorporeal and invisible entities, including for other non-ephemeral entities) and their drawbacks seem to stem from the fact they're not in the Hedge. However, the section on Hedge Ghosts does have a sidebar that explains what happens when ephemeral entities enters a realm where there is no Twilight: They do as I wrote in my first post, which is to automatically materialise.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                        • #13
                          So Bear Totem spirit without other Manifestations and Twilight Form would... instantly materialized in physical world? 🤔 Even when he do not have - explicitly - Materialize Manifestation now?


                          My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
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                          • #14
                            Under normal conditions, Tessie is right: it is not useful to view Twilight Form as a Manifestation power the way other Manifestations are, as it's simply describing the ephemeral condition.

                            In the specific case of your homebrew, look at what you're actually doing narratively and design for that. Gradually losing Manifestations such as Possess, Fetter, and Image means your theme is of ephemeral entities gradually becoming isolated and unable to interact with the world around them. Anything that makes the entity more able to interact with the material realm, then, is inappropriate. You should instead go with one of the logical outcomes that fits your contagion's isolating effects:
                            • Twilight Form is not removed by the Contagion, eventually becoming the ephemeral entity's only remaining Manifestation. Its Numina and Influences presumably also lose their ability to affect the material realm. The ephemeral entity has no choice but to wander where it can find Essence to sustain itself from events already occurring in the material realm.
                            • When Twilight Form is removed, this means that the ephemeral entity cannot exist in Twilight. Either the entity is instantly banished to its respective otherworld, or it must flee to the otherworld before this happens, and if it loses Twilight Form while in the material realm it is destroyed.
                            • When Twilight Form is removed, this means that the ephemeral entity lacks the bodily cohesion to interact with other beings in Twilight. A ghost who suffers this fate drifts through Twilight unable to be seen or touched even by other Twilit ghosts, alone and helpless to affect the world in any way, even only the world of ghosts.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post
                              You should instead go with one of the logical outcomes that fits your contagion's isolating effects:
                              • Twilight Form is not removed by the Contagion, eventually becoming the ephemeral entity's only remaining Manifestation. Its Numina and Influences presumably also lose their ability to affect the material realm. The ephemeral entity has no choice but to wander where it can find Essence to sustain itself from events already occurring in the material realm.
                              • When Twilight Form is removed, this means that the ephemeral entity cannot exist in Twilight. Either the entity is instantly banished to its respective otherworld, or it must flee to the otherworld before this happens, and if it loses Twilight Form while in the material realm it is destroyed.
                              • When Twilight Form is removed, this means that the ephemeral entity lacks the bodily cohesion to interact with other beings in Twilight. A ghost who suffers this fate drifts through Twilight unable to be seen or touched even by other Twilit ghosts, alone and helpless to affect the world in any way, even only the world of ghosts.
                              It was my general idea from the start - I just found games rules about confusing on those subjects. I was thinking more about option 3, as option 1 still was pointing for the possibility for it to get strengths back when founding Essence. And general gist for my Contagion of Being is that you become more and more isolated - and finally vanish from existence, literally. Thanks for compiling them, Loserman.

                              Just to clarify, option 3 still should have option's 1 'it's Numina and Influences presumably also lose their ability to affect the material realm'?
                              Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-09-2020, 03:11 AM.


                              My stuff for Realms of Pugmire, Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E, MtC 2E & BtP
                              LGBT+ through Ages
                              LGBT+ in CoD games

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