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  • Question about Teamwork (chances, storytelling, ...)

    Hi,

    one of my players noticed that teamwork reduces your chances of success:

    Example:
    Two Players have a dice pool of 5 each.

    Teamwork:
    The supporting Player adds only his success to the dice pool. Therefore the the dice pool is now (very likely) below 10.

    Normal Roll:
    Everyone tries the roll on it’s own. All 10 dice still have a chance of success.

    From that point of view you reduce your chances of success in teamwork, but you increase you chances of an exceptional success, because the teamwork dice pool is usually larger.
    β€”

    Questions:
    1) Did I miss something?
    2) How do you handle teamwork as a Storyteller? Do you let you Players chose whether they want to use teamwork? Do you have guidelines for those rolls in your group?
    Last edited by Elythia; 10-12-2020, 08:41 AM.


    Waiting for new Chronicles of Darkness Dice! πŸ€— 🎲

  • #2
    One of the example where Teamwork is very useful are extended actions, where you have to meet a target number of successess before a certain number of rolls.
    You can also use it to mitigate rolls with a large penalty
    Also, players always have to choose if using teamwork or not, as the characters has to coordinate their effort somehow

    Comment


    • #3
      Saying teamwork reduces your chances of successes isn't terribly accurate.

      You're not compared ~7 dice to 10 dice. You're comparing 5 dice rolled twice to ~7 dice. Which is better is highly variable.

      When teamwork isn't worth using, is when it's simple for everyone to roll and add cumulatively to a goal: combat for example. When teamwork is worth using is when two or more people doing the same thing at the same time individually aren't inherently helping each other: social maneuvering for example.

      I use what makes the most sense. If the players are trying to pick a lock, they can't all be picking the lock at the same time. So if more than one player wants to have at it, they can use a teamwork action, or hope the first player succeeds alone and then try separately... but that's how guards show up and notice you breaking into somewhere you're not supposed to be.

      If the players are trying to smash down a concrete wall with sledgehammers, the wall is big enough that they can all hit it at the same time and it makes sense. So I'd let them pick if they want to go individually or as a team (the Durability of the wall and their dice-pools might mean that teamwork is better for the higher average successes).

      I generally let my players pick, but exercise veto power based on what they're doing and how.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
        You're not compared ~7 dice to 10 dice. You're comparing 5 dice rolled twice to ~7 dice. Which is better is highly variable.
        If your goal is just one success to avoid failing, 10 dice have always a higher chance that maybe 7 dice. If you are using teamwork you are even risking to loose the already accomplished successes of the supporting player.

        In my case they where talking about investigation and research rolls.

        I agree that teamwork rolls do make a lot of sense for extended actions! 😊
        Thank you both!


        Waiting for new Chronicles of Darkness Dice! πŸ€— 🎲

        Comment


        • #5
          In most cases you teamwork either because you can't make simultaneous and/or successive attempts (in which case a teamworked dice pool is always better than a single character's dice pool, provided no supporting actor rolled a dramatic failure) or because the number of successes matter, which it does for all extended actions and contested rolls.

          There's also situations where rolling separately instead of teamworking means you contest each others rolls. For example, two allies in a grapple with an enemy might roll separately but doing so would mean they roll against all other parties in the grapple and the winner is unlikely to get a high result because only the successes in excess of the highest loser counts, and the damage move would probably not deal much damage. If they instead teamworked the roll they would no longer act against each other and almost certainly increase the average amount of successes rolled in excess of their opponent's successes, allowing for a more damaging damage move (something my group calls "make a wish" after a certain incident involving two grapple focused vampire PCs vs an NPC whose stats we apparently overestimated a bit).
          Last edited by Tessie; 10-12-2020, 11:10 AM.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Ε½iva
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Elythia View Post
            In my case they where talking about investigation and research rolls.
            Research rolls are almost always extended actions, and investigation rolls should probably enforce teamwork rules depending on the circumstances. If a room is to be investigated for clues, having four people search the room does not mean they're four times as likely to find said clues. No, a teamworked action is how to handle multiple actors in that case to avoid extremely unrealistic stacking of dice pools.

            Edit: Generally speaking (but far from always), teamworking is not a choice. If two or more people want to do a thing and it doesn't make sense to double or triple or quadruple the chances of success, it should be a teamworked action. Of course, this only applies in situations where there can only be a single outcome (a clue is found or not found), rather than multiple different outcomes for each individual (some people see the incoming danger; some people do not).
            Last edited by Tessie; 10-12-2020, 11:22 AM.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Ε½iva
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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            • #7
              Also very helpful. Thank you! 😊


              Waiting for new Chronicles of Darkness Dice! πŸ€— 🎲

              Comment


              • #8
                Another cool thing about teamwork is that if a player has a dice pool of 7 and two others player has dice pools of 3, they can use teamwork to make more likely that the first player succeeds.
                The supporter player would most likely fail rolling alone, and it would be boring to just let the first to do all the work, as a game master you can give the feel that everyone is involved in some crucial action using teamwork

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think the most important thing you can be "missing" in this discussion is that the "7 dice vs 2 times 5 dice" is illusionary. You're not lowering your chances by using teamwork, because that's the only option there is. The "two times 5" option doesn't exist. The teamwork rules are as they are to ensure that a few people "helping" one another doesn't produce results that skew the values inherent to the system by too much.

                  It's essentially a non-choice, as you're expected to use the Teamwork rules whenever possible. The players shouldn't be getting to choose between rolling individually or not, as part of the teamwork rules also illustrate diminishing returns from more people being busy in the same general space doing the same kind of things.

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