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  • #46
    Supernatural powers can bypass this rule.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Lashet View Post
      Supernatural powers can bypass this rule.
      Supernatural powers specify when they bypass this rule, and more commonly facilitate large dicepools by increasing the actual Traits that go into their composition. This is one of the advantages of Transhuman Potential over Physical Intensity.


      Resident Lore-Hound
      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
        Supernatural powers specify when they bypass this rule, and more commonly facilitate large dicepools by increasing the actual Traits that go into their composition. This is one of the advantages of Transhuman Potential over Physical Intensity.
        Well, re-reading dice pools rules this is correct.
        Physical intensity and frenzy apply bonuses to rolls, while transhuman potential increases the attribute for the action duration.
        Then vampires would be more able to overcome penalties, like defence, but the net attack bonus cannot get over strenght+skill+vigor +5.
        Promethean with low azoth have smaller bonuses, but raising it they can reach similar damage output

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        • #49
          In the VtR book only equipment modifiers specify whether they have caps or not. In the CofD book they clarified it for a bunch of new modifiers that weren't present in VtR. In one case I found (regarding Clued in the Investigation system) it's specified that the modifier can exceed +5. In all the others I found (equipments and vehicles) it's specified they can't exceed +5. Seems they learned to clarify it properly at some point after they wrote VtR.

          How my group deals with modifiers that aren't specified is that we adhere to the +/-5 standard when the modifier has no other limit listed. For example, when figuring out a penalty to Frenzy rolls that isn't listed in the sidebar on page 104 we wouldn't go beyond -5.
          However, Physical Intensity is limited by the Vitae spent on it (and, technically, is a bunch of +2 modifiers, and only equipment modifiers are specified to not be stackable to above +/-5), while the Frenzy bonus and Kerberos Lashing Out bonus both are based on Blood Potency which is a trait that's already capped.
          Capping any of these in +5 is pretty ugly because in the former case it leads to wasting fractions of Vitae, and in the latter because of the jarring change in how they scale between BP 1 to 5 and for elders above that.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • #50
            It could be argued that Physical Intensity is an increase to an attribute that lasts one roll.
            Honestly I work on the assumption that if there was meant to be a cap the rules for PI would explain it.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Live Bait View Post
              It could be argued that Physical Intensity is an increase to an attribute that lasts one roll.
              Honestly I work on the assumption that if there was meant to be a cap the rules for PI would explain it.
              But Discipline like Vigor states clearly that they increase the attribute, while PI uses the word bonus.
              In the same book rules about bonus and penalty to dice pools states that they can t exceed +/- 5

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              • #52
                Fair enough but oversights happen and Onyx Path doesn’t always fine tune their wording as well as we might like.

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                • #53
                  There's been a few references to the +5 bonus cap, but does anyone have the actual page where this is stated?

                  I can find three potential instances in Requiem 2nd edition. The first is on page 169 under Rolling Dice:

                  Many rolls have modifiers, either from equipment, circumstance, or someone working against your character . Most modifiers are within the range of +3 to –3, though they can range as low as –5 or as high as +5.
                  This passage puts a limit on individual bonuses from circumstances and equipment, but it doesn't say that no dice roll can ever be modified by more than 5. Furthermore, it does not say that circumstance and equipment bonuses cannot be stacked beyond +5 or -5. On the next page under Circumstance and Equipment it goes into a bit more detail:

                  the modifier from circumstances will be between +3 and –3, though in very rare cases ... it can range from +5 to –5.
                  So this isn't saying that +5 is some kind of hard cap, just that this is as high as circumstantial bonuses go, later it states:

                  Most equipment offers a +1 to +3 die bonus. A top-of-the-line or custom item might give a +4 or +5 die bonus
                  Again, this isn't implying the existence of a hard +5 cap. It is saying that equipment alone cannot grant more than +5 to a dice roll. Taking these two together, there is nothing that indicates you couldn't get a net +10 from circumstances + equipment

                  The final reference to a +5 cap I could find is on page 184 under Equipment:

                  Dice Bonuses
                  Most equipment offers a bonus to dice rolls pertaining to its use. Multiple items can influence a given roll, but a roll should not receive more than a +5 bonus.
                  This just seems to be a restating of page 170 - equipment by itself cannot grant more than a +5 bonus to a dice roll. It says nothing about dice granted by other sources.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Aurumae View Post
                    There's been a few references to the +5 bonus cap, but does anyone have the actual page where this is stated?
                    I think you found them all. I think it's the first example that's often taken as a rule rather than a recommendation. And I would definitely be considering it a rule, except I know how easily Onyx Path forgets to clarify different things so for me it makes more sense to see if the game becomes more enjoyable with or without that cap and consider the more enjoyable option likely to be the intended way to do it. Hell, an overly strict interpretation would even restrict resistances (Resistance Attributes to resist powers, as well as Defense) to be capped at -5, and that's just ridiculous.

                    You're right that only equipment states that cummulative modifiers are capped in ±5. We do generally apply it to different "sources" of modifiers, but that's a house rule we've adopted rather than an actual rule. For example, we don't add more than +5 from Specialties (only been applicable in our long running VtR game) and wouldn't compound circumstantial modifiers (rain, slippery floor, loud winds, etc) to more than ±5 if it was relevant.
                    Edit: Example on a modifier we wouldn't cap is the cummulative -1 penalty to Defense you take for each attack after the first one. It makes little sense that you suddenly stop being overwhelmed by additional attackers once you've already faced five. That's basically the same principle as not capping the cumulative bonuses from multiple uses of Physical Intensity.
                    Last edited by Tessie; 01-27-2021, 09:54 AM.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                      You're right that only equipment states that cummulative modifiers are capped in ±5. We do generally apply it to different "sources" of modifiers, but that's a house rule we've adopted rather than an actual rule. For example, we don't add more than +5 from Specialties (only been applicable in our long running VtR game) and wouldn't compound circumstantial modifiers (rain, slippery floor, loud winds, etc) to more than ±5 if it was relevant.
                      This is the way our group runs it too. It rarely comes up that circumstantial or equipment modifiers would exceed ±5 anyway in my experience

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                      • #56
                        I always played it with +5 bonus as a hard cap, especially when the bonus is mundane.
                        ---

                        I personally find it kinda hard to make a good comparison between the splats outside of the gamistic aspect.
                        Otherwise some splatpowers are kinda hard to jufge in their effectivness - i.e. i find the power of vampires to create ghouls, blood bonds or blood addicts highly undervalued, which is counteracted by their sun-/activity-cycle problem.

                        Mages get dot/xp-wise the most as a generic starting character especially in comparison to a vampire. I don´t remember exactly, but it was easily a jumpstart of 30+ xp to most other splats.

                        Werewolfs, Changeling still can´t reach mages. - but are better of than vampires.

                        Then there is the Powerstat treshold of 5/6+ after this, it even get´s messier to gauge. Mages literally leave the board. High Wyrd changelings get mindboggling powerful with dream- & weaving.


                        Gamelines: Requiem, Lost, Awakening, Trinity Continuum: Aeon, some V5.
                        Likes cheesecake (quark-based)

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                        • #57
                          I would weigh the power of any supernatural splat against the things that they are fighting. Mages might be powerful, but they are fighting the Exarch God Kings which basically rule the Universe. Werewolves are powerful fighters, but they are fighting the Idigam which are also proto godlike spirits which can spawn legions of minions. Deviants "only" need to fight a human conspiracy.

                          In addition, I would look at the weaknesses of the splats as well. A Beast needs a Hero to lay an Anathema on it, but all werewolves have the Bane (silver) and Rage Anathemas all the time. This might balance it out a bit too. As for Mages, I find that Mages usually are mighty in a narrow band, but usually are facing the mysteries of the Universe. A Mage who specializes in Death might be very flat footed when facing a hostile spirit.

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                          • #58
                            I would also argue that, the great combat abilities for werewolves are because they are probably the most likely to get into combat. I imagine that their vast regeneration when in garou form is to counter the hordes of enemies that they fight as well. In other games like Deathwatch or Exalted, thematically there are scenes of Space Marines or Exalted fighting off hordes of enemies. The Uratha sometimes find themselves fighting hordes of spirits, claimed, rat hosts, etc, or large enemies surrounded by minions, and the massive regeneration is needed just to keep them in the fight.

                            Of course, once you are outnumbered 3 or 4 to 1, or more, that is probably when the damage wraparound takes place which puts pressure on the Uratha to win the fight or Perish. Either they let the timer run out, which leaves them more vulnerable, or they go into Kuruth which is where bad things happen.

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                            • #59
                              An overlooked aspect of Uratha is their ability to force Clash of Wills on many facets while getting dice tricks such as Rote on them. With Fetishes increasing Duration/affecting many packmates at once, you are looking at a splat that dominate that aspect of gameplay.

                              The other thing overlooked is Uratha have one of the largest options for holding Willpower and regaining it. Between Blood, Bone, Two Touchstones, and sleep, you are looking at five ways to gain Willpower. If you add the Pack mechanics where you have number of willpower equal to number of Uratha in the pack as communal pool on top of Zeal from the Gift of Ferver (which increases your WP pool), you are looking at quite a storehouse of points for both the pack and the personal Uratha can use.

                              Nothing that goes "Wow!" but these are pretty noticeable and potent in their own right.

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