How does Stun work?

[Undead rabbit]

Hi, me and my group have some problems with the interpretation of the Stun tilt.

If you read the rules at page 286 where there is the Stun tilt it is written this

"A character can be stunned by any attack that does at least as much damage as her Size in a single hit.
Some weapons have a “stun” special ability. These double the weapon modifier only for the purposes of working out whether the attacker inflicts the Stunned Tilt. Attacks against
the target’s head (see “Specified Targets,” p. 92) count the character’s Size as one lower for the purposes of this Tilt"

So it would seem that any attack could stun, without the need to aim at the head.

But in the chapter about the specified targets it says

"Head (-3): A damaging attack can inflict the Stunned Tilt if it deals at least as much damage as the target’s Size"

So it would seem that only specified attack at the head do inflict the stun tilt, as it is phrased.

Some players in my group say that you cannot stun without a specified target attack, while others say otherwise.

What do you think?

[The Throne]

An attack that do Size Damage, ALWAYS cause Stun.
Attack at the Head, need Size -1 for Stun.
Weapon with the STUN tag, change to "Size -1" to " Size/2" for Stun.

See to pp 276 for Pepper Spray.
The Stunned Tilt page is misleading, i agree too.

Edit.
This is from Deviant.
" Stunned
PERSONAL
Description: The character is dazed and unable to think
straight.
Effect (severe): The character loses her next action, and
halves her Defense until she can next act.
Causing the Tilt: A character can be stunned by any attack
that does at least as much damage as their Size in a single
hit (or 1 less than their Size if the attack targets their head).
When aiming for the head with the intent to stun, weapons
with the “stun” special ability halve the victim’s effective Size
(rounded up).
Ending the Tilt: The effects of this Tilt last one turn. The
character can end the Tilt during their own action by reflexively
spending a point of Willpower, but a –3 modifier applies to
any actions they take that turn."

[Sith_Happens]

You’re meant to have to aim for the head to stun but they somehow never changed that part of the tilt description.

[Undead rabbit]

So, two post with two opposite interpretations of the rule.

[The MG]

The text in the Stunned Tag doesn't match anything in the combat system as written in any book. The exception is the CofD corebook version, which correctly states that "a character can be stunned by any attack that targets her head and deals at least as much damage as her Size" (emphasis mine).

...It then goes on to immediately contradict itself, jesus christ.

Just... just follow the rules in the actual combat section, which are at least consistent across different gamelines.

[HelmsDerp]

'Stun' is a mess. We haven't even gotten to weapons with the stun tag doubling their modifier for the purposes of inflicting stun... and the examples having a modifier of 0, rendering the tag useless.

[Tessie]

'Stun' is a mess. We haven't even gotten to weapons with the stun tag doubling their modifier for the purposes of inflicting stun... and the examples having a modifier of 0, rendering the tag useless.

That was back in GMC and maybe some other early 2e book. Later 2e books halves Size for the purpose of inflicting the Stun tag.

The Stun tag, the Stunned Tilt, and the description for targeting the head has each changed independently from each other due to rewrites of the rules and writers either misunderstanding the rules or updating them without making sure they actually work with other rules. (Note that I don't blame any writer for this; such things happens during development and is simply supposed to be corrected later down the line. I blame OPP's process in developing the books because this manages to reach the printed version basically every single time a rule is reprinted with different wording to fit a new format, context or word count limit.)

This is what I believe the current rules are:
Any attack that deals damage equal to or exceeding the victim's Size inflicts the Stunned Tilt. If the attack targets the head of the victim, their Size counts as one less.
Any weapons with the Stun tag halves the victim's Size (rounded up) for the purpose of determining whether they get the Stunned Tilt.
This is how the Stunned Tilt and Stun tag works in Deviant, one of the latest books as well as a book where neither of those two rules contradicts the other. I am just outright ignoring the description for targeting the head because that's never aligned with any other rules except way back when it just referred directly to the Stunned Tilt.

[Aurumae]

This is what I believe the current rules are:
Any attack that deals damage equal to or exceeding the victim's Size inflicts the Stunned Tilt. If the attack targets the head of the victim, their Size counts as one less.
Any weapons with the Stun tag halves the victim's Size (rounded up) for the purpose of determining whether they get the Stunned Tilt.
This is how the Stunned Tilt and Stun tag works in Deviant, one of the latest books as well as a book where neither of those two rules contradicts the other. I am just outright ignoring the description for targeting the head because that's never aligned with any other rules except way back when it just referred directly to the Stunned Tilt.

Unfortunately Deviant also contradicts itself. In the combat section for Deviant it says the following under "Specified Targets":

Head (–3): If damage equals or exceeds the victim’s Size, it inflicts the Stunned Tilt.

So here it's specifying that the head must be targeted. Then in Appendix One, the Stun tag for weapons is explained as follows:

Stun: Halve the victim’s Size (rounding up) when aiming for the head with intent to stun (p. XX).

This is at least consistent. Normal attacks never stun. Attacks targeting the head can stun, but only if they do damage equal to the target's size. Weapons with the Stun tag can also only apply the tilt when aiming for the head, but treat the target's size as half (rounded up) for the purposes of determining how much damage is needed to stun them.

The contradiction is in the description for the Stunned Tilt:

Causing the Tilt: A character can be stunned by any attack that does at least as much damage as their Size in a single hit (or 1 less than their Size if the attack targets their head). When aiming for the head with the intent to stun, weapons with the “stun” special ability halve the victim’s effective Size (rounded up).

So this contradicts the combat section of the rulebook.

I'm inclined to believe that the version of the tilt printed in the tilt card is incorrect. The Stunned Tilt seems to have gone through multiple iterations. The original version of the Tilt in the God-Machine Chronicle Rules Update is very similar to what we see in Deviant:

A character can be stunned by any attack that does at least as much damage as her Size in a single hit. Some weapons have a “stun” special ability. These double the weapon modifier only for the purposes of determining whether the attacker inflicts the Stunned Tilt. Attacks against the target’s head (see “Specified Targets,” p. 203) count the character’s Size as one lower for the purposes of this Tilt. The Storyteller might determine that additional effects cause this Tilt, like being caught in the blast area of an explosion (World of Darkness Rulebook, p. 178).

On the other hand the version of the Tilt in the Chronicles of Darkness Core Rulebook specifies that the attack must be to the head:

Causing the Tilt: A character can be stunned by any attack that targets her head and deals at least as much damage as her Size. Some weapons have a “stun” special ability. These double the weapon modifier only for the purposes of working out whether the attacker inflicts the Stunned Tilt. Attacks against the target’s head (see “Specified Targets,” p. 92) count the character’s Size as one lower for the purposes of this Tilt. The Storyteller might determine that additional effects cause this Tilt, like being caught in the blast area of an explosion.

What I think is going on is that there is that at some point the Stunned Tilt was changed so that the attack must target the head. However the earlier version of the tilt card has been copied and pasted into newer rulebooks that include the new system in their combat section and include the revised rules for the "Stun" tag on weapons. Whatever the case, if the intent is that any attack that deals damage equal to the victim's size always stuns them then that belongs in the main combat rules, not hidden away in the description of the Stunned Tilt.

The Stun tag on weapons seems to have gone through multiple iterations as well. We find one version (double the weapon modifier) in the original God-Machine Rules Update, The Hurt Locker, and printed on some of the tilt cards. However Requiem 2e, Forsaken 2e, The Chronicles of Darkness Core Rulebook, and every core book I checked up to Deviant all agree that the current version of the tag is "Halve the victim’s Size when aiming for the head with intent to stun."

It would be great if we could get some clarification and maybe an FAQ for how the tilt is supposed to work, since errata for books printed 5+ years ago seems unlikely.

[Tessie]

Unfortunately Deviant also contradicts itself. In the combat section for Deviant it says the following under "Specified Targets":



So here it's specifying that the head must be targeted.

I specifically said I ignored that part because that part has never been consistent with any iteration of the stun rules in either the Stun tag or the Stunned Tilt. I also think it's irrelevant because it's a reminder text and not the actual rule.

Then in Appendix One, the Stun tag for weapons is explained as follows:



This is at least consistent. Normal attacks never stun. Attacks targeting the head can stun, but only if they do damage equal to the target's size. Weapons with the Stun tag can also only apply the tilt when aiming for the head, but treat the target's size as half (rounded up) for the purposes of determining how much damage is needed to stun them.

Now you're adding extra info. That the Stun tag only applies to attacks against the head does not imply that attacks not against the head can't apply the Stunned Tilt.

The contradiction is in the description for the Stunned Tilt:

Since the Stun tag doesn't actually disqualify non-headshots from applying the Stunned Tilt, there is no contradiction (except for the reminder text that never has been consistent with any version of the rules).

I'm inclined to believe that the version of the tilt printed in the tilt card is incorrect. The Stunned Tilt seems to have gone through multiple iterations. The original version of the Tilt in the God-Machine Chronicle Rules Update is very similar to what we see in Deviant:



On the other hand the version of the Tilt in the Chronicles of Darkness Core Rulebook specifies that the attack must be to the head:



What I think is going on is that there is that at some point the Stunned Tilt was changed so that the attack must target the head. However the earlier version of the tilt card has been copied and pasted into newer rulebooks that include the new system in their combat section and include the revised rules for the "Stun" tag on weapons. Whatever the case, if the intent is that any attack that deals damage equal to the victim's size always stuns them then that belongs in the main combat rules, not hidden away in the description of the Stunned Tilt.

The Stun tag on weapons seems to have gone through multiple iterations as well. We find one version (double the weapon modifier) in the original God-Machine Rules Update, The Hurt Locker, and printed on some of the tilt cards. However Requiem 2e, Forsaken 2e, The Chronicles of Darkness Core Rulebook, and every core book I checked up to Deviant all agree that the current version of the tag is "Halve the victim’s Size when aiming for the head with intent to stun."

Due to the nature of how Onyx Path works, there's no singular intent behind anything. Different writers have different interpretations of the rules and will rewrite and/or expand based on those interpretations. As such it's possible to come up with multiple different ways to handle it depending on which point in time you're looking for. What I posted is almost certainly not how the original writer intended it to work in the GMC, but it's the latest iteration and at least it works.

It would be great if we could get some clarification and maybe an FAQ for how the tilt is supposed to work, since errata for books printed 5+ years ago seems unlikely.

Onyx Path doesn't do errata (aside from the last public editing pass which they call errata) nor FAQs. The one FAQ we do have (for Vampire) was written by the VtR lead dev at the time on her own time without any compensation from Onyx Path.
We could potentially get a writer's input on the issue, but that might not actually make it into the books. I once pointed out that the rewrite of the core rules (somewhere between Mage 2e and Changeling/Geist 2e) changed the rule of being able to spend one WP per action to only being able to spend one WP per turn. I asked about that and was told that was a mistake and that once per action is the correct rule. Fastforward to now and not only do the advanced copy of Deviant still have the rule be once per turn, but even includes specific text on some Adaptations that provides exceptions to the once per turn rule that wouldn't be needed if it was once per action like it's actually supposed to be.

[Undead rabbit]

Also there are some fighting styles that clearly stun you without hitting in the head.


Like the third level of Boxing in Hurt Locker

Knockout Artist (•••): Your character knows how to
knock someone out. She now treats the target’s Size as 1
lower at all times for the purposes of inflicting the Stunned
Tilt, reflecting her ability to casually hit someone in the head.
If you suffer a penalty to target the head as a true specified
target, treat the target’s Size as 2 lower for the purpose of
inflicting the Tilt.


The phrasing does suggest that you can stun either without aiming, either with a specified target.


Or the Ippon move in the Grappling style

Ippon (•••): Additional Prerequisite: Takedown Maneuver.
While using Drop Prone with the Takedown Maneuver, your
character hurls his opponent to the ground with exceptional
force. Double the damage of the takedown for the purpose of
inflicting the Stunned Tilt, but not as actual damage.



Any chance that a developer could enlighten us?

[Eric Zawadzki]

I somehow missed the specified targets sidebar when trying to clean up the Stun mechanics for Deviant. I will see if I can slip in a "-1" after "the victim's Size."

[The MG]

Alright, so with this final clarification: has anyone played with the interpretation that turned out to be correct?

My intuitive read is that being Stunned after a 5-damage blow would cause a sort of death-spiral scenario on top of the already existing wound penalties and Beaten Down Tilt, but I've only really run 1e fights, so I might be entirely off base.

[Tessie]

I somehow missed the specified targets sidebar when trying to clean up the Stun mechanics for Deviant. I will see if I can slip in a "-1" after "the victim's Size."

Will anything be done about the Willpower thing?

[Aurumae]

Alright, so with this final clarification: has anyone played with the interpretation that turned out to be correct?

My intuitive read is that being Stunned after a 5-damage blow would cause a sort of death-spiral scenario on top of the already existing wound penalties and Beaten Down Tilt, but I've only really run 1e fights, so I might be entirely off base.

This is my read on it too. Characters doing 5+ damage per hit is not difficult. High initiative and powers like Celerity are already very strong, this just makes those even stronger since stun-locking your opponent would now be relatively easy. Even with tough characters like high resilience Gangrel or multiple Gauru-form Werewolves, fights rarely last more than 4 or maybe 5 rounds, so losing your next action is huge. If this is the intent, I will be houseruling the stunned tilt out of my games

[Eric Zawadzki]

Will anything be done about the Willpower thing?

Same deal. Changeling and Geist appear to have snapped back to per action, and the Mummy preview shows the same. I'll see what can be done.