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  • What's your opinion on beast

    So it's been a while since Beast was released and i would be curious to know what the geberal opinion on beast is right now on this forum

  • #2
    We do have a Beast sub-forum...

    Opinions are generally divided, with a lot mixed in that aren't really about the game itself.

    Even the biggest fans of the game are frustrated with the poor quality of the core book that undermines and undersells the potential of the game at best, while fueling the fires of those that dislike it to full on hate at worst.

    I think the only real consensus is that the game as it exists is seriously flawed. Beyond that, it's how salvageable you think it is. This ranges from people like myself that think it's actually a great game wrapped up in an ugly package and are praying for the day when Cinder and Arc are allowed to do a fixed version of the core, to people that think Paradox and Onyx Path should scrub it from existence rather than waste time on trying to fix it. There hasn't yet to be anything to push a majority into a specific "camp" on things.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Anyoneatall View Post
      So it's been a while since Beast was released and i would be curious to know what the geberal opinion on beast is right now on this forum
      Overall not a fan though there are I think workable bits of it here and there of good concepts. I've been gaslit so many times in regards to Beast I just ignore it most of the time. And since one harasser is in this thread, I think that is enough to say.
      Last edited by TyrannicalRabbit; 05-16-2022, 11:17 AM.


      Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TyrannicalRabbit View Post
        Overall not a fan though there are I think workable bits of it here and there of good concepts. I've been gaslit so many times in regards to Beast I just ignore it most of the time.
        Gaslighted?

        What do you mean what happened?

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        • #5
          In general, as far as I’m aware, Heavy Arms nailed it.

          For my part, I kinda got the worst introduction possible, reading 1d4chan and Fatal and Friends thing about it way before I ever actually read the book. Honestly, I only got the books for information to work on a Mage legacy. It took a while to get over my bad impression, and actually read the thing, but once I did I found beneath the flaws actually was some pretty interesting and good ideas. A full on Second edition for Beast would be amazing, but that’s a long way off, if it ever happens.


          To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

          So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Anyoneatall View Post

            Gaslighted?

            What do you mean what happened?
            I am also curious about this.


            Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Feminine pronouns, please.

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            • #7
              As has been said, Beast is a game with both potential and issues. The idea that Beasts essentially have to choose between being abusers and starving their soul is interesting, but it's one of the things that's hard to write well. Heroes are a great idea for antagonists, especially with the idea of them losing their way and telling corrupted versions of their story, but there's too much focus on the one kind of corrupted story.

              It doesn't help that the themes of story and myth/folklore are also a key part of Changeling, which focuses on recovering from abuse. Or that Werewolf also tackles ideas of family. It doesn't make Beast bad, but it can make it feel like a thematic retread.


              Blue is sarcasm.

              If I suggestion I make contradicts in-setting metaphysics please ignore me, I probably brought in scientific ideas.

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              • #8
                Whenever someone asks about Beast and its history, I refer them to this Thread. It contains experiences of several writers from the project, and opinions from multiple fans. Usually it's the former that's of most interest, but if you're interested in how other people read the book, both can be relevant to you.


                ~

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                • #9
                  Beast needs a 2nd Edition with better designers/writers with a unified vision.

                  What works:
                  • Crossover Splat compatibility
                  • Nightmares act as good support abilities (i.e. debuffs).
                  • Lairs are a great mechanic.
                  • Satiety as a mechanic is great: Depending on its value changes what abilities might do also you can spend satiety to boost the ability if you want.
                  • Beasts as Mythological/Legendary monsters that exist in people's nightmares.
                  What doesn't work:
                  • Thicker than Water - Beasts automatically increasing their Impression with other splats and monsters by +1. This is mechanical benefit that should be left to roleplay, doubly bad in that it is a passive ability they have.
                  • Beasts are hunted but have no oversight on keeping Heroes from being created. Vampires have a governmental body to enforce the masquerade, Beasts do not. The Apex doesn't care and the Dark Mother doesn't care. Makes Beasts seem very anti-survival.
                  • Beasts written from a "morally right" perspective, either have them be inherently villains or have them be vigilantes.
                  • Heroes being only low integrity - This seems added to make Heroes look like the bad guys. Having morally grey Heroes or even ones who are Hunters who lost someone to a Beast would be perfectly fine to have and be more interesting the M'Lady Guy.
                  • Family Dinner - Requirements for what constitutes "hunting" is too restrictive depending on how Beasts are being portrayed. For example, RAW Beasts don't get Satiety from a Vampire feeding from their Herd, instead they have to get it from a Vampire hunting a Mortal.
                  • Lessons - This just doesn't fit. Its a paper thin justification for why Beasts do what they do.
                  What could work:
                  • If Good Guys:
                    • Replace Hunger (Tyrants) from asserting Dominance to removing people from Dominant positions. (i.e. feed on Pride)
                    • Hunger (Collector) works in my mind, but may need to be tweaked slightly. (i.e. feed on Greed)
                    • Replace Hunter (Predators) from hunting prey to hunting other predators. (i.e. feed on
                    • Replace Hunger (Nemesis)... No idea what to replace it with, but thematically it seems like a generic version of Hungers.
                    • Replace Hunter (Ravengers) with destroying destroyers maybe?
                    • If Beasts fed off of cleansing people of Sin like Pride, Greed, Envy, Sloth, Lust, Wrath, and Gluttony I feel like it would be more thematic for them as "good".
                  • If Evil Guys:
                    • More thematically if Beasts fed off the presence of Sin like Pride, Greed, Envy, Sloth, Lust, Wrath, and Gluttony I feel like it would be more thematic for them as villains.
                  • Split Beasts into 2 factions like how we have the Vampire Covenants vs VII, Forsaken vs Pure, Pentacle vs Seers, Prometheans vs Centimani, Changelings vs Loyalists/Privateers, Hunters vs Slashers, Mummies vs Shan'iatu, Angels vs Demons, and Deviants vs Devoted... Man its almost like we have a theme here?
                    • Maybe take the idea of Beasts who cleanse Sins and Beats who instill Sins and put them into two rival factions? Sounds good. Sounds better than BtP is right now imo.

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                  • #10
                    I actually have a strong dislike for Beast's crossover mechanics:
                    • For some reason, they default to a higher impression with the Others, than the Others themselves. So a Beast has higher default impression with any vampire, than the vampire themselves has.
                    • They immediately recognized other monsters for what they are; this destroys the core themes of secrecy in a lot of the games. It sucks being a Winter courtier or a Kindred trying to maintain the Masquerade and someone just walks up to you all 'sup I know you're a fairy/vampire'
                    • Some of Beast's merits/powers are incredibly overtuned compared to the games they'd potentially meddle in (Mage being the exception I guess). Imagine a hobgoblin trying to deceive or trick a group and the Beast can just slap down Mimir's Wisdom etc.
                    I really struggle to play Beast because there's no cohesiveness in the game, nothing that contextualizes my character's existence as a Beast; there's no Beast society; there's no Beast laws; there's no Beast traditions, and so on. If I make a changeling, werewolf, or mage, I have a societal framework provided for my character to fit into (or not fit into). I also dislike how their grand reason for existing is presented: you are here to teach important lessons to humans, but also if you don't want to just don't do it lol, and btw if you want to murder/torture them that is fine but beware of heroes.

                    The game has a lot of potential, and one of my favourite thing ever is Lairs, but yeah, I bought the books but never really felt like I wanted to play the game.

                    P.S
                    In my humble opinion, advanced and epic merits are just ridiculously overtuned. Some of these just costs 2-3 xp and are magnitudes stronger than supernatural powers in other gamelines without requiring fuel/willpower to benefit from. I think these should either have been made more widely available or not been done at all. I think this might be an opinion not shared by most people, but for a game with an emphasis on crossover, I think they are really an imbalance in gameplay.

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                    • #11
                      Love the game.
                      It's incomplete without the Player's Guide, and the editing in the Core Book has actively made portions of the game unplayable without handwaving.

                      Still love, it though.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Vintervalpen View Post
                        I really struggle to play Beast because there's no cohesiveness in the game, nothing that contextualizes my character's existence as a Beast; there's no Beast society; there's no Beast laws; there's no Beast traditions, and so on.
                        I feel like there's a few object lessons to get into with the ongoing thread (the ongoing issues and misunderstanding of Thicker Than Blood is a headache), but I'd rather sit on that and let it stew and build before I address individual points. I think this particular argument is a great iteration of the point Heavy Arms made about the problems of the series as it exists now, though:

                        Beast DOES have traditions, laws, and a society (What family doesn't?), and more importantly has a very heavy center of cohesiveness and contextualization for a character's existence (particularly in regards to what they're supposed to do and how they conflict for it, which I assume is the main complaint of this notion), but it can be forgiven if people reading Beast walk away without picking up on that, partly because it is a very a-typical set of all those things in comparison to it's peers, but mostly because Beast, particularly the core, does a really bad job of explaining them, or even focusing on them. It took me a while to realize it was there, and I'm arguably the bitch-sage of the franchise.
                        Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-06-2022, 04:42 PM.


                        Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                        Feminine pronouns, please.

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                        • #13
                          A little guilty pleasure of mine is mentally phrasing Beasts as the ‘Maou’ (Demon King, Dark Lord, Overlord, etc) character type popularized by Japanese Anime/LightNovels/etc media. Including both the ‘traditional’ evil sorcerous overlord types you’d see from Dragon Quest, and the ‘contemporary’ Byronic Heroes and pseudo-Drizzt types. And all the ‘Mawang’ characters from Korean webnovels, since I’m binge reading them.

                          And them blend them all over together with Castlevania’s Dracula, because I want Lairs and neighboring monsters and ‘mantles’ of inherited dark power. Over that, the bad guys get Ravenloft’s Darklords added in, and the good guys get Elder Scroll’s Paarthurnax and the Last Dragonborn added in.


                          MtAw Homebrew:
                          Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
                          New 2E Legacies, expanded

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                          • #14
                            It occurs to me I have not actually addressed my opinion. THe folly of assuming everyone knows it already, I suppose.

                            My general stance is that of "Everything Beast needs to be a good game that is true to itself is there-it just wasn't assembled right." I think there's a lot of really cool and compelling points to the game that makes it worthy to be-maybe not great, maybe not "secretly the best game ever" (Yes assholes, I see you), but a good and worthwhile game that, at worst, doesn't deserve your time and attention just because it's not to your taste and not because of the Dear God, Finding Out The Developer Was Asleep at the Wheel Explains WAAAAAAY Too Much Of THis Game Because It's Kind of a Trash Fire.

                            AS IS, the game is fun and rewarding for people who resonant with it's near-bruied familiar, human, and very-gameable points, or for anyone who spends entirely too much time with it to realize those points-but for the majority of a buying audience, Beast's presentation (and let me draw attention to that particular word, presentation) is really sincerely ugly and failing to live up to what it's trying to be. I disagree with a lot of the arguments that Beast brings, particularly since it draws a massive amount of bad faith arguments, but I never really blame anyone for those arguments (except the most egrigious of bad faith arguments, which the abundance of which Beast gets just reinforces that Beast hews towards pissing off the right sort of people and I'm all about that) because the production of the core is really bad, and while supplements have done a lot to clean it up, it's not enough and it still shouldn't have to have run into that in the first place.

                            Underneath all of that, there is a good game to love and adore, and I am glad of any and everyone who gets there, and want to do more to make that more clear and reach out to more people-but Beast as it is does not make any of that easy, and gah, why.


                            Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Feminine pronouns, please.

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                            • #15
                              Love it dearly, completely agree that the core is a mess and needs a rewrite.

                              Re: Thicker Than Water. So a couple of years ago I was walking through a convention on the way to meet some friends and a random guy yelled "Hey, nice shirt!" This caught me kind of by surprise until I realized he was wearing the same shirt. Nothing particularly came of the encounter, but because of that connection I was instantly more receptive if he had wanted further conversation. It was a literal good first impression. It wouldn't have stopped me from changing my opinion if he subsequently turned out to be unpleasant.

                              That's all Thicker Than Water is. It's just that "Same Hat!" experience. It's not going to stop people who meet enough hat wearing assholes from distrusting anyone else wearing the hat.

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