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  • Hurt Locker Super Early Open Development Question

    http://theonyxpath.com/super-open-de...s-hurt-locker/


    David A Hill Jr
    Freelance Writer
    Independent Game Designer

  • #2
    Fighting Styles (Two Weapon Fighting! Archery!) and Tilts/Conditions.

    I'd especially like to see things like "if you take any Aggravated damage you get <X> Condition type, if you take more than <Y> Agg damage you get <Z> condition type," and a list of Conditions.

    Aggravated damage needs to be more than just "that harder to heal from damage" or "that thing you need to do to actually kill Vampires and Werewolves."


    proin's Legacy hub

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    • #3
      I'd like to see weaponry have a wider representation than just a set of slightly different numbers and values. The difference between something like a 9mm pistol and a .44 is much greater than how heavy it is and how much damage it will do when it hits someone. Even more than that, I think combat needs to be explored more. What does 3 lethal damage mean to a character, other than being a few steps closer to dying? Maybe explore the healing process or the dramatic impact of being shot/stabbed/bitten/clawed?

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      • #4
        A would like to see included (and reposted from the blog):

        1. Optional and expanded rules for injury and healing that are more realistic, maybe with Conditions representing the permanent effects of lethal injury to the human body, rules for bleeding-out, and the immediate need for specialized medical care like surgery in order to survive, no less even begin to recover from, being shot, stabbed or gutted by the claws and fangs of unimaginable horrors.

        2. Actual rules for attempting decapitation, one of the classic forms of killing supernatural beasts (particularly vampires).

        3. Some background about police and security services (and depending on jurisdiction, military deployment in civilian areas), both in the USA and other major countries. I find that TV and movies have really screwed-up many peoples’ understanding of basic police procedures and organizations, the type of weapons that are actually carried, both firearms and non-lethal, the laws concerning the actual use of weapons by both police and civilians, and the scrutiny that alleged self-defense or treatment of suspected gunshot or other unusual wounds will receive even in locales with liberal firearm laws or high crime rates.

        Emphasis on how the USA is not the Wild West, the streets do not run red with the blood of children, the military is only deployed on US soil in the most extreme emergencies, and how violent encounters, whether rural or urban, will almost definitely be noticed and likely prosecuted. Of course, information concerning other countries like the UK, China, Japan, Germany, India, Columbia, Mexico, etc., with very different conceptions of violence, weapons, police competence and corruption, and criminal justice and human rights, should also be included.

        4. When witnesses view or hear multiple gunshots, horrid screams, strange shadows and blood-soaked, gory scenes, the authorities will investigate. Some storytelling advice about how to deal with these issues, including the mark on your now permanent police file and resulting psych evaluation when you tell your friendly FBI agent that you had to kill that woman because she was possessed by evil spirits or that strangely decayed cadaver with a protruding stake with your fingerprints was really a vampire out to drink your blood! The cost and difficulty of retaining counsel and dealing with the criminal justice system also deserves mention.
        Last edited by branford; 09-05-2014, 12:58 AM.

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        • #5
          I took a slightly different approach and rather than talking about what mechanical elements I want to see in Hurt Locker (because I think most of the things I want are probably a given inclusion, and regardless I'm sure I'll enjoy what ever mechanics are included) my comment was about what I'd like to see in terms of narrative focus, and how I'd like to see the information presented. Here's a copy and paste of the comment I left on the blog:

          Originally posted by me
          I'd love to see a heavy focus on the reasons people and characters engage in violence. This could both be an interesting look into the psychology of violence, and also makes for a lot of great segues into the mechanical content.

          It would also just make for a really cool way to organize the book. You could start with an introduction about how there is always a reason for violence and why it's so important that the first step in combat in second edition is to determine what each party wants out of the combat - both the mechanical reasons like determining if Down and Dirty is appropriate and if Beaten Down can be applied, as well as the narrative importance of knowing why these characters are engaging in violence. From there, each chapter can focus on one reason for violence. Give advice on how that kind of violence affects the narrative of the game, introduce a few mechanics that relate to that kind of violence, and maybe give a couple of optional rules hacks that shift the gameplay of combat to emphasize themes associated with that kind of violence.

          For a few examples of reasons for violence that could be discussed and what mechanics might be related to them: violence as a means to an end is probably the most common type of combat in the World of Darkness by default, and can lead into a closer look at the Beaten Down rules, and at violence as Hard Leverage in the Social Maneuvering system. Violence in the interest of self-defense is another very common use for combat in the game, and can lead into some of the physical hazards of combat such as Tilts. Violence as a method of asserting power or control opens the door for tackling very serious subjects through the game, and is also a great place to introduce Conditions that represent the psychological tolls violence can play on a person. Violence as sport can give a welcome break from what is otherwise often a very dark subject, and is also the raison d'etre of several Fighting Styles.

          There are a lot of other subjects that could be covered in this manner, but these are just a few ideas of how you might be able to present both the examination of violence and the mechanics of combat in an integrated way that works well with the existing combat mechanics in second edition.


          Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you both for those extended contributions.

            FWIW, if we d things like the implications and implementations of violence, there will be mechanics associated. To me, there is no "fluff and crunch". There is only game content. To me, all things must be playable.

            One of the problems I run into with "combat" rules conceptually is, they get subdivided and receive significantly more attention than pretty much everything else in game rules. So they get unfairly held on a pedestal. This is really an opportunity to let those ripples, those results of violence have mechanical effect. This is a chance to build mature and complex systems on the roots of violence, so we can tackle it from a new perspective. I think we approached this in GMC. I want to turn it to 11 here.


            David A Hill Jr
            Freelance Writer
            Independent Game Designer

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Nyx View Post
              I'd like to see weaponry have a wider representation than just a set of slightly different numbers and values. The difference between something like a 9mm pistol and a .44 is much greater than how heavy it is and how much damage it will do when it hits someone. Even more than that, I think combat needs to be explored more. What does 3 lethal damage mean to a character, other than being a few steps closer to dying? Maybe explore the healing process or the dramatic impact of being shot/stabbed/bitten/clawed?
              What do you think those differences are? Because, in my experience, the differences are: weight, recoil (and thus time to reacquire target), and size of hole in target. Recoil is governed via the strength requirement; time to target reacquisition is very brief, two accurate shots in a four second interval is very doable when shooting a semi-auto.

              For revolvers, the difference between double-action and single-action firing is maybe 5 yards of accuracy and manually cocking the hammer doesn't take that long.


              There are differences between guns and bullets, even shooting a .357 magnum vs a .38 in the same revolver is different, I don't think the differences are significant enough to warrant all the finicky rules that'd have to go into distinguishing them.

              Not unless we wanted this:




              Joke image aside, I'm genuinely curious about what you think should be added to better differentiate guns when a lot of it comes down to simple personal preference and comfort.Even the M9 and M&P9 shoot differently.
              Last edited by proindrakenzol; 09-05-2014, 01:32 AM.


              proin's Legacy hub

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              • #8
                I would also add that particularly in light of the pubic effects of combat on returning troops, including shockingly high suicide rates, some form of optional (and tiered) PTSD mechanic or Condition, possibly independent of Integrity, might be advisable. Many ethical, highly-trained and otherwise experienced individuals ultimately cannot process extreme violence, and I imagine your average accountant or mechanic forced to repeatedly fight horrors that should not exist produces much worse results.

                At the very least, I would propose an expanded discussion of Breaking Points related to confronting horrors and violence. Some discussion or even mechanics about psychiatric or psychological treatment of both victims and perpetrators of violence may also be useful. Besides, any respectable horror game should include mental institutions with mad scientist doctors, sadistic nurses and orderlies, and experimental drugs and procedures. Sometimes the violence and horror inflicted on you are by those whom you seek help and treatment. . . (In the genre. I have absolutely no problems with real world medical and psychological treatment).
                Last edited by branford; 09-05-2014, 01:54 AM. Reason: Added disclaimer about real world psychological treatment.

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                • #9
                  And, on a lighter note, any self-respecting supplement in the horror genre with gun stats, MUST include the Desert Eagle AE .50 Cal. and Smith & Wesson .500 Magum pistols. When you're hunting (or hunted) by relentless supernatural predators, take no chances!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MachineIV View Post
                    Thank you both for those extended contributions.

                    FWIW, if we d things like the implications and implementations of violence, there will be mechanics associated. To me, there is no "fluff and crunch". There is only game content. To me, all things must be playable.

                    One of the problems I run into with "combat" rules conceptually is, they get subdivided and receive significantly more attention than pretty much everything else in game rules. So they get unfairly held on a pedestal. This is really an opportunity to let those ripples, those results of violence have mechanical effect. This is a chance to build mature and complex systems on the roots of violence, so we can tackle it from a new perspective. I think we approached this in GMC. I want to turn it to 11 here.
                    That's awesome! I can tell I'm going to enjoy this book.


                    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      David, something that often worries my STs is how players want to run "killer/assassin" characters and how this may run counter to a full personal horror experience. On the other side, these types are everywhere (movies, series, anime...). Any way to reconcile or give some advice pro/against this kind of thing?

                      Originally posted by branford View Post
                      police and security services (and depending on jurisdiction, military deployment in civilian areas), both in the USA and other major countries. the laws concerning the actual use of weapons by both police and civilians
                      Originally posted by branford View Post
                      mental institutions.
                      Branford, I truly don't wish to sound rude, but I think you might enjoy these already published books: Dogs of War, 13th Precinct and Asylum. They cover most of these things and as for gun-laws, the first armory already covers that quite deeply. I don't know how tight is David's wordcount but not repeating (at least, not in depth) might give him more room to explore new stuff.
                      Last edited by Yuukale; 09-05-2014, 04:11 AM.


                      Historian ~ www.cronistasdastrevasbr.com

                      I currently ST a... MtAW 2e campaign called "Axis Mundi - Si Vis Pacem"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Yuukale View Post
                        Branford, I truly don't wish to sound rude, but I think you might enjoy these already published books: Dogs of War, 13th Precinct and Asylum. They cover most of these things and as for gun-laws, the first armory already covers that quite deeply. I don't know how tight is David's wordcount but not repeating (at least, not in depth) might give him more room to explore new stuff.
                        No offense taken, and I own and enjoy all three cited books and both Armories. I did not mean to imply that the material in the much earlier books should dominate "Hurt Locker," but rather that the topics still deserve significant mention as well as updated mechanics for 2e, particularly the Condition system and interrelation with the more supernaturally "tiered" setting in later 1e books and now 2e.

                        It's very likely that a great deal of information from earlier titles will need to be revisited in this new tome, and Dogs of War, 13th Precinct and Asylum contain much material as valuable as Armory and Armory Reloaded.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by branford View Post
                          I would also add that particularly in light of the pubic effects of combat on returning troops, including shockingly high suicide rates, some form of optional (and tiered) PTSD mechanic or Condition, possibly independent of Integrity, might be advisable. Many ethical, highly-trained and otherwise experienced individuals ultimately cannot process extreme violence, and I imagine your average accountant or mechanic forced to repeatedly fight horrors that should not exist produces much worse results.

                          At the very least, I would propose an expanded discussion of Breaking Points related to confronting horrors and violence. Some discussion or even mechanics about psychiatric or psychological treatment of both victims and perpetrators of violence may also be useful. Besides, any respectable horror game should include mental institutions with mad scientist doctors, sadistic nurses and orderlies, and experimental drugs and procedures. Sometimes the violence and horror inflicted on you are by those whom you seek help and treatment. . . (In the genre. I have absolutely no problems with real world medical and psychological treatment).
                          Well put. Considering the staggering rates of PTSD, suicide, and homelessness among veterans here in the US, addressing the psychology of war seems absolutely appropriate.

                          I also agree that I think we're going to need a bunch of new Conditions and Tilts. Is that knife you were cut with serrated? Well now you have a Condition where you'll bleed out unless you're sewn up. Did you just get dealt your Stamina in damage from the force of a grenade? Well now you have the Disoriented Condition and have to make Perception rolls to notice things that are normally obvious. And you have to worry about the Concussed Condition because that could morph into something far more dire if you fall asleep.

                          I'd also love to have a few more examples of ordinance, as someone who isn't very military minded. Stuff such as what's the difference in the blast between a stick of dynamite versus a single grenade or even a pack of dynamite. And since we're going to 11 here, why not give examples ranging from the gunpowder in a bullet casing straight through an atomic bomb? Let's face it: if there's a Promethean in your Chronicle odds of a nuclear strike go wayyyy up.


                          Simulacre: An Alternative Morality Stat for Prometheans
                          Homebrew Athanors

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                          • #14
                            I would very much like to see somethign concrete and mechanical for how player characters are affected by violence in an emotional manner (Conditions?) but also something good and clear for how NPCs are affected. Not the throwaway types but for example in Vampire your Touchstones may well be victims of violence but may also see your player character committing violence.

                            I'd love to see something mechanical on how bystanders, close loved ones, friends, family, etc. are affected by violence done to others especially violence performed by player characters.

                            Play up Beaten Down and expand other ways you could disarm a fight or end one without death or any violence.

                            Also, as a personal thing, I'd love to see a really in depth series of Conditions to replace the health box system.

                            And loads of ways of interacting with Conditions/Tilts using combat maneuvers. And something like a web of Tilts that lets you go down a spidery diagram of 'If opponent has any one of Conditions/Tilt X, Y or Z, you can perform maneuver A, B or C to cause Tilt P'. See grappling lockflows for example.

                            I'd like to see a Merit that allows you to use the Brawl skill with improvised weapons.

                            I'd like to see the Stun Tilt made less crippling - perhaps allow slow movement afterwards to stagger around dazed, or some form of ineffectual defensive flailing. Ambush + Strike to Stun is too much of a go to thing for people with weapons.

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                            • #15
                              One thing I deeply appreciated in Arsenal was the sections on who uses this type of weapon, as well as the section on weapon legality. Helped to drive home that this is the World of Darkness, and packing the heat that you may need to survive the night might make some powerful people unhappy. If you get caught, that is...

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