[GMC] Influences with 6+ Dots?

[amechra]

Does anyone have ideas as to what Influences rated at 6+ dots can do?

I mean, I know Imperial Mysteries does have rules for what you can do with 6+ dots, but since both Influences AND Mage spells work differently in the 2nd edition, I think some adjustments are in order.

Thanks to the Duration and Effect levels having separate ratings, we do have a rough system (6 dots lets you make Permanent Manipulations, for example), but I do kinda want "big guns", as it were.

So, any ideas?

[Seraph Kitty]

After just now reading the influences section in GMC and the 1e Werewolf core side-by-side, I don't see any changes to Influences at all (duration and effect were always separate), and while Mage spells are seeing a significant overhaul, it didn't sound like the changes were to the practices themselves (veiling, patterning, etc), which is what higher ranked influences are based off of. I don't think there's any need for adjustment for 6+ influences. That being said, we only have a Mage book for examples of what those look like, so if want changes I fully support that. I'd start from the perspective of what entities of that rank should accomplish (ie, what can the Firstborn do that no weaker spirit can?); Angels and ghosts I'd imagine being a little more difficult though.

[Penta]

As I think the Influence effects in second edition work essentially the same as in the first edition, the list in Imperial Mysteries is still a decent guide line as to what Influences can do. In other words, at the higher ranks of Influence, Influence can be used to improvise Numina, as long as they fit with the type of Influence, where higher influences can produce more complex effects.

The main difference in the new system would be that you'd have to adjucate for yourself whether a spirit can perform a certain effect instantly, or whether it will cost him some time.

[amechra]

Well, that's egg on my face . Shows me for making assumptions.

I do still think that having what you can do with "Godlike Influences" being phrased in Mage terms is a bit disappointing, so...

New Stuff To Spend Your Dots On

Scope:
Scope covers what the Influence Effect is applied to:
0 - The effect is applied to a single instance of the Influence. +0 Essence.
• - The effect is applied to [Rank] instances of the Influence. +1 Essence.
••• - The effect is applied to every instance of the Influence present in the scene with the Entity. +2 Essence.

Reach:
Reach covers how close the Entity has to be to apply the effect; for the purposes of Scope, anything within this range is in the same Scene. An entity still needs to be conscious of a given instance's existence to affect it, unless they also include the 3-dot Scope effect in the Influence.
0 - Immediate Presence. +0 Essence
• - One-mile radius. +0 Essence
•• - Province. +1 Essence
••• - Country. +1 Essence
•••• - Global. +2 Essence

Contagion:
Contagion is mostly used for Influences that affect living creatures; it marks how long the effect stays in the "gene pool". The Influence must already have the Permanent duration before Contagion is used, reserving it for the mightiest of spiritual beings.
0 - Does not pass down to future generations. +0 Essence.
• - Passed down a maximum of one generation. +0 Essence.
•• - Passed down a maximum of two generations. +1 Essence.
••• - Passed down a maximum of three generations. +1 Essence.
•••• - Passed down a maximum of five generations. +2 Essence.

Abstraction:
Abstraction governs how concrete the instance affected is; this particular factor is of limited use if Scope ••• is not included, so bear this in mind. Devoting a dot to Abstraction would allow a Spirit with an Influence of Love to affect love poetry; devoting three dots to Abstraction would allow the Spirit to affect the concept of love (within the area and duration, at least.)
0 - Actual instances of the Influence. +0 Essence
• - The effect can also affect representations of the Influence. +1 Essence
••• - The effect can also affect conceptual symbols of the Influence. +2 Essence

---

Ephemeral Beings may purchase the following Numina; they may purchase it an additional time if they have Rank 6+

Establish Purview
The entity has a purview within their larger sphere of influence. While acting within this purview, the first dot of Abstraction, Contagion, Duration, Reach and Scope do not count towards the maximum number of dots that can be used on a given Influence. Uses of that Influence that are outside treat the Influence's dot rating as one lower and increase the cost by 1 Essence. This Numen can (and often is) be stacked with itself.

---

I think that covers practically everything; permanently making anger a more intense emotion for the entire world would be a 15-dot effect, which could be pulled off by a Rank 7+ Entity who took Establish Purview twice and who had Anger 7+. This would cost 9 Essence.

Alternatively, if my rules for emotions are in use, a Rank 7+ Entity with Anger 7+ could give 3 generations of a family anger management issues. This would cost 7 Essence.

I feel like there are some places where I don't have the ratings quite right; anyone feel like checking my eyeballing?

[amechra]

Also, a weird one:

Conversion
Conversion is a set of alternate Effects that can alter or modify an Influence.
•• - Convert an instance of your Influence into another instance of your Influence. I.e., turn lead into gold. +2 Essence
•••• - Convert an instance of your Influence into an instance of one of your other Influences. I.e., turn water into gold. +4 Essence

[Penta]

The original system is phrased in Mage terms because IM is a Mage book, so it seems natural to use the Mage rules to improvise Numina at higher Influences. Because it is an improvisation system, further rules aren't really necessary I think. In my comments below, I assume that your system is meant to replace the old (using as an addition would make no sense, at the system also replaces Numina, and you provide a new Numen :P).

Do you also intend this system to be used by spirits with influences of 5 or lower? Because in your system a spirit can start influencing multiple targets at an influence of 2, instead of the normally required influence of 5. Also, in my opinion Scope and Reach vastly increase the powers of lower ranked spirits, because they can now affect multiple targets, or hit targets from afar. Maybe this is apropriate for Incarna, but not for Gafflings and Jagglings. If an entity used Reach 1 (or 2) and the Seek Numen, she could use powers from afar even without Scope, which could cause all kinds of new problems.

For the 6+ influences: At level 6 or higher a spirit can already affect multiple targets for long durations or use powers affecting a large area. So under the original guidelines, such a spirit wouldn't even need Reach (and possibly not even Scope) as long as it takes more time, or the Spirit accepts dice penalties. At level 7, a spirit can already create effects that are passed down through an unlimited amount of generations (if the change is dominant). So while you now allowed a rank 6 influence to pass something down for one generation, higher influences are weakened under your rules. Finally, under your rules a godlike entity cannot perform complex effects that are part of the higher practices anymore (like Dynamics or even Transfiguration). These powers are what makes an Influence 7+ entity really godlike.

So if I interpret your system, and the old rules correctly, you have inadvertedly increased the power of Influences of 5 dots or lower, while you decreased the power of the higher, godlike, influences.

[amechra]

I did actually intend to strengthen lower dot Influences, but the reduction of higher-dot power was a bit accidental. I'll work on something tomorrow.

[Penta]

The downside of only giving new things to spend influence dots on, is that this will not enable spirits to achieve entirely new and big effects that transcend the normal influence limitations in complexity.

What you could do is add a variant of the table from IM to show what kind of new effects a spirit can accomplish at the higher levels. This way you could circumvent the problem of complex abilities not being available anymore. If you want spirits to still be able to improvise Numen like powers with their influence, you could also add that there. And you could also use this table to note exceptions to the standard rules that break the linear rise of power, like the exception at influence 5 that a spirit gets free permanence on one target. One of those exceptions could be that a spirit at an influence of 6 gets free scope 3, or that with an influence at 7 a spirit gets perfect contagion.

[amechra]

That's actually what I was thinking of. Stop stealing my brain-thoughts!

But more seriously...

Remove Establish Purview, and progression will probably go:

Rank:
6 - You may apply any combination of Scope •, Duration ••, Reach ••, or Abstraction • to your Influences without counting towards the total dot count.
7 - In addition to what you are allowed to do at Rank 6, you may apply Scope •••, or Abstraction ••• to your Influences without counting towards the total dot count. Any of your Influences that reach Permanent duration can be passed down any number of generations.
8 - In addition to what you are allowed to do at Rank 7, you may apply Duration ••••, Reach •••• to your Influences without counting towards the total dot count.
9 - You may use any Influence Reflexively.

Effect:
••••• •: Dynamics - The Entity may create a self aware Influence, which dissipates at the end of the Influence's duration. This costs 6 Essence.

Self Aware Influence
Type: Unique
Rank: 3
Vice: Duty
Integrity System: Designed by the Entity
Attributes: 8/6/5
Influences: [Influence] •••
Corpus: [Resistance]
Willpower: 10
Size: 0*
Speed: Power + Finesse + 5
Defence: Lower of [Finesse] and [Resistance]**
Initiative: [Finesse] + [Resistance]
Armor: 0
Numina: The Influence does not gain Numina; instead, they are given 5 dots of Factors, which they may apply to their uses of their single Influence, to a maximum number of effective dots equal to the Entity's rank.
Manifestation: Twilight Form, Fetter
Max Essence: 20
Ban: Designed by the Entity
Bane: Designed by the Entity

* The Influence does not take up physical space; while it technically has a position, it doesn't have any scale.

••••• ••: Entities - The entity may permanently modify a living creature in ways in line with the Influence; this effectively means that the entity may grant or remove a Supernatural Template that lies within the theme of their Influence, or can create or destroy souls from scratch. This is by default Permanent, and costs 10 Essence.
••••• •••: Dominion - The entity may create or destroy worlds. This is, by necessity, Permanent, and costs 15 Essence.
••••• ••••: Anything - The entity may do literally anything within the purview of its Influence. This costs 20 Essence.

[Maskah]

Honestly if something of Rank 6+ shows up it should be as a plot devise. That is what they have always said in all of the books. I wouldn't worry so much about the mechanics so much as what you want it to do for your plot.

[amechra]

But I want to worry about it.