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Inferno: 2nd Edition

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  • #61
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

    Maybe the rules of interaction? Spirits need the Resonance to build up. The Demons should interact when "Sins" (Transgressions ) of their Malepraxies come to being. If Spirit of Lust comes when people make a Night Club in reality the Dark Room to randomly fuck with each other - the Demon of List comes when perfect marriage is destroyed by the act of infidelity, killing the wife in perverted way. Spirits need build up, Hell's Demons need atrocities. I think it would change all "we need this and those Conditions" mechanics enough.
    When I wrote my own rough conversion of the Dominion I took this into account and you're right that this is the best way to create a difference in the two entities. At this point, however, one has to focus on the concept of transgression as the route of sin and so it becomes less attached to the modern vice system and instead you go back to that old 7 Deadly Sins rule but instead of relating it to the willpower regenerating action of nearby humans you base it solely on that transgression.

    Example: Before the Lust Demon would gain willpower and essence if anyone gave in to its Malapraxis because their vice was lust. Since, unless a character chooses one of the Seven Deadly Sins as their vice, this is far more unlikely to come up, I uncoupled it from the system of a character vice. Instead, the demon regains willpower and essence if anyone engages in the sinful practice of its Malapraxis period, regardless of their beliefs, so long as the action itself is both transgressing and destructive in some way.

    To further this idea I decided that 'Malus Loci' should be their dependent condition. Where a Spirit is 'Resonant' with anything within its nature a Demon is not. It feeds on malice and transgression so anywhere where such things occurred become 'Malus Loci'.

    Continuing the example of the Lust Demon he can only regain essence and prevent essence bleed while haunting, for example, the master bedroom of a married couple's house because the husband brought his mistress home and desecrated their bed with the transgression. It is both a transgression of virtue, so sin, and is destructive behaviour that if found out about would damage his marriage.

    However, with all of that said, there still is an inherent problem. Spirits are just so damn broad and undefined. A Spirit of Lust, one could argue, would only resonate with transgressive behaviour because it isn't a Spirit of Sex or a Spirit of Revelry, it is a Spirit of Lust which carries with it the connotation of transgression already. Essentially, a Spirit of Lust is an evil spirit already or put another way: a spirit of lust is already a demon.

    So while in the short-term this serves for those of us who want to use a Demon in a certain way and separate them from Spirits an easy argument can be made that it's still the same thing and that all we're doing is renaming the Resonant condition and Nature of a more specifically aligned spirit to "Malus Loci" and "Malapraxis".

    At current, in their broad mechanical nature, the three Ephemeral Creature types serve most (if not all) purposes one could need for a monster in any chronicle. That is: A Ghost is a personality that follows a personality's motivation. A Spirit is a conceptual entity that feeds on a certain concept and encourages that concept. An Angel is a ordered being that follows a specific task, even if that task is nonsense. This is why I feel as if for a Dominion to be truly distinct as an entity it would have to be more akin to the Strix and possess its own rules entirely and be detached from the concept of being an Ephemeral Creature.

    Originally posted by Leliel View Post

    Quite. That's why I advocate a different idea; focus on the demons and not the people who pact with them. Show what it's like to be Mephistopheles from his side of the pentagram, how a demon thinks. They probably still aren't playable (they have too many restrictions on their behavior-what an irony), but they should come off as something a enterprising ST could make playable, or even better, something a player of one of the Possessed might play on and off when one takes control. Yes, this crowds into Demon: the Descent, but then again they're both called demons; the Unchained should come off as being able to emphasize with the Infernal PoV very easily. Make it clear that the damnation of the Inferno is very much a self-inflicted one; in Willard Farnham's view of Faust, the good doctor's consignment to Hell is what drew ol' Mephy to him in the first place, rather than the other way around. Conspirators, not manipulators. Give them positive traits, things their honeyed words are genuine about; Mr. White does want to bring murderers to justice, Seminaza wants to make his host strong, popular, and happy. That is their difference-a demon has empathy, and empathy implies altruism. They don't exercise that all that often, but you can't guarantee that the succubus is just feeding on a convenient source; she could honestly love her summoner, and nothing in the world will make her betray him...which is hazardous to the cunning sap that thinks her lust makes her fickle, and thus, will always chose her power and survival when push comes to shove.

    In short, make them more human, because humans are unpredictable; monstrous one day, angelic the next, usually both. Add that to raw power and the understanding that, in order to survive and grow, they must be monstrous more often...

    Also, there's a lovely little concept called retcon; it's easy to make the Lord of Lies ability have flaws in it rather than just an invincible mental shield-Descent does this with Unchained lies, they can control everything that says they might be pulling something out of their ass...but nothing else, which is why they need Subterfuge to tell good lies.
    I feel like you just described to me the True Fae from Changeling the Lost. These are entities fueled by their passions, ordinary or bizarre, that are decoupled from the mundane concepts of "good and evil" and any dual nature that notion represents. Fae do what they want or do what they do, for whatever reason. The rules in this regard are even called "Ruled by their Passions" on several True Fae stat block. They are often sinister, but not always. Sometimes True Fae just want a friend and sometimes they find a child willing to be that friend and their leading them into Arcadia never to return is, quite frankly, only caused due to both the child and the True Fae's inability to understand the concept of consequences.

    Inferno's core character, as MCN says, kinda have to be evil. Without compromise. They can trick you into thinking they aren't evil, but they are as evil as they come.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by DesolateDolly View Post
      I feel like you just described to me the True Fae from Changeling the Lost. These are entities fueled by their passions, ordinary or bizarre, that are decoupled from the mundane concepts of "good and evil" and any dual nature that notion represents. Fae do what they want or do what they do, for whatever reason. The rules in this regard are even called "Ruled by their Passions" on several True Fae stat block. They are often sinister, but not always. Sometimes True Fae just want a friend and sometimes they find a child willing to be that friend and their leading them into Arcadia never to return is, quite frankly, only caused due to both the child and the True Fae's inability to understand the concept of consequences
      In short, the True Fae act like children. Over powered children with powers that would make a Mary Sue drool but children none the less. They act wild and have the temper of a twister at times but overall childish. Like all childhood, this comes at a time of somewhat self centeredness but also lessons about learning about others. True Fae are perpetually on the verge of learning what the Other is and that one can exist without partaking in conflict but never quite reaching the goal.

      This is reflected via the Virtue and Vice being inverse. The True Fae does can act somewhat kind and whatnot (and perhaps do the best to exercise it in relation to their title) but if their Vice is triggered... Well, may God help you.

      Infernal Demons on the other hand, are much more evil. While the True Fae can and does practice it's virtue from time to time, it's usually an extension of their childish outlook. They didn't mean hurt the little doggie. They just wanted to pet it but then it started to bite them and they hate it when it bites so they just gave it a sharp twist to make it be quiet. But now the doggie is quiet all the time and that's boring. Even after they gave it food and water and some friends to play with but now it just lays there. They'll just have to go get another one.

      Infernal Demon, nah, the fucker gave you knew exactly what he was doing when he did the thing. He tied you to a chair, sliced off your eye lids, and fucking made you watch as he tormented you with it's cries. He laughed as adrenaline flooded your system and you broke out of the chair only to find a box with a recording of the dog's screams and the Demon's Testament constructed out of it's skins. And you? The first one to scream it's name so loud that others will hear, others that may yet summon it.



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      • #63
        Originally posted by Raistlin View Post
        Talking abour Inferno....Does anyone remember this post? I would love to see its mechanics updated and adapted.
        You know, I honestly dropped that because I wasn't getting much feedback; all of its mechanics are GMC compatible, though I will have to give them a firm shake-n-bake to make them not awful.

        EDIT: That is to say, I'll approach them and make them workable, if you want me to. (I also wrote up Ephemeral Being rules for Inferno Demons here.)
        Last edited by amechra; 02-16-2015, 11:01 PM.


        I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

        So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

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        • #64
          EDIT: That is to say, I'll approach them and make them workable, if you want me to

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          • #65
            Originally posted by amechra View Post

            You know, I honestly dropped that because I wasn't getting much feedback; all of its mechanics are GMC compatible, though I will have to give them a firm shake-n-bake to make them not awful.

            EDIT: That is to say, I'll approach them and make them workable, if you want me to. (I also wrote up Ephemeral Being rules for Inferno Demons here.)
            That's really Cool.

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            • #66
              I would like rules to clarify the effects of trading dots of willpower for power, like making the Fiend less human (or at least more disturbing).
              Also, the pacts mechanics should be more freeform, like a semi-open magic system based on effects associated with cardinal sins.,

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                Bear in mind that if we get a 2e-esque Inferno, it’s going to be using 2e-esque Vices, which aren’t so much about “doing evil things” as “taking the easy way out”: A character's Vice, on the other hand, is a source of short-term comfort and a distraction from the world. Vice should be the easy way out, the sand he buries his head in, like a bully lashing out to avoid his own fear or an alcoholic drinking to forget. Put another way, your Vice is the mechanism you use to cope with the problems in your life without actually dealing with them.
                This is the best argument for ditching the big seven as far as sings go, because it parallels the weak and shallow nature of Inferno demons. (It does however entail a big overhaul for Possessed's powers).

                Originally posted by MCN View Post
                Chapter 1 - bring the dominions and whisperers into line with the regular spirit rules for manifestation and the like. Update a few of the Numina. Vices unimportant - generally speaking, the only real mechanical effect is what influence it can take, so there's no need to have any description about them. No need for dealing with how Integrity works. Demons never interacted with Morality, so there's no reason for Integrity to change it.
                Agreed.
                Chapter 2 - updates to powers granted. Research rolls and summoning remain the same. Benefits from pacts could use updating, but that's not hard, bringing them in line with current supernatural merits for mortals.
                Agreed.
                Chapter 3 - new rules for the Possessed. You can just keep the seven sins as the branches and just update the Vestments; treat the sins as abstract categories instead of firm ones. Update experience chart. Some beats for making others commit evil acts, maybe, feed the demon. Everything else is fine.
                If the possible sin bases for demons is widened, the powers need to be too; maybe design the powers so they can have an "on/for" slotted into them according to a demon/Possessed's particular sins. Or maybe have it as a setting element that the Possessed do tend to exemplify a narrower set of sins than demons in general, and that's why those became more generally recognised.
                Chapter 4 - Example monsters are examples. L'enfant diablique are "evil lucifuge" served as part of Hunter's line.
                I'd break this in half. Example demons, and example cults and worshippers. Les Enfants can be part of the latter - so can the Belial's Brood and Bale Hounds excised from the second editions of Vampire and Werewolf - perhaps along with changeling and sineater analogues.

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                • #68
                  There's some place where the devs show us what is being planned?


                  Check my homebrews:
                  Vampire Bloodlines: Kiasyd, Melissidae
                  Mage Legacies: Infernal Ones, Daoine

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                  • #69
                    In general or about a posible 2nd edition version of Inferno?

                    In general you have the Onix Path blogs and the social media accounts.

                    As for Inferno, is just wishful thinking on our part, no official anouncement that it is even being considered.


                    I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

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                    • #70
                      Isn't the whole argument about infernals being the same mechanically speaking as other existing creatures, the same as arguing to stop using all kinds of different mechanics and simply start using the Hunter Vigil dread powers for all opponents regardless of splat book mechanics? It would certainly make it a lot easier for story tellers to use other monsters without the need to buy a large amount of books Then you can make one design book about tempters, whether that is True Fae, the God Machine, Ghosts or Devil-like entities and how to use them in various game lines.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
                        There's some place where the devs show us what is being planned?
                        The Monday Meetings.

                        And the current project page.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by nofather View Post
                          Thanks for the info, but I was talking about an open discussion between players and developers.

                          Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
                          In general or about a posible 2nd edition version of Inferno?
                          Yes please.

                          Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
                          As for Inferno, is just wishful thinking on our part, no official anouncement that it is even being considered.
                          Aaaah. T_T


                          Check my homebrews:
                          Vampire Bloodlines: Kiasyd, Melissidae
                          Mage Legacies: Infernal Ones, Daoine

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            In addition to the Goetic Demons and the derivatives of the Christian tradition we have two more types of demons.

                            The Specimens of East Asian Culture, whether in Buddhism, Shintoism or contrary to the Celestial Hierarchy, can be classified as another beast (as the Fairies and Vampires were dissociated from the Demons).

                            And the Zoroastrian Demons, these can not be and they have nothing associated with falling into them. They are the fruits of evil and bring this in their essence to destroy order and creation.

                            I think that Hell Second Edition should deal with Ahriman as more than a powerful Goetic spirit. And it treats it as its own, as it is treated in its culture.

                            I even think like Mummy has an Egyptian base. Inferno should have Persian base.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                              In addition to the Goetic Demons and the derivatives of the Christian tradition we have two more types of demons.

                              The Specimens of East Asian Culture, whether in Buddhism, Shintoism or contrary to the Celestial Hierarchy, can be classified as another beast (as the Fairies and Vampires were dissociated from the Demons).

                              And the Zoroastrian Demons, these can not be and they have nothing associated with falling into them. They are the fruits of evil and bring this in their essence to destroy order and creation.

                              I think that Hell Second Edition should deal with Ahriman as more than a powerful Goetic spirit. And it treats it as its own, as it is treated in its culture.

                              I even think like Mummy has an Egyptian base. Inferno should have Persian base.
                              I mean, this post was 3 years old.

                              It is generally implied that many of these are the same entities. Lucifuge and the Otodo are basically being the Christian/Shinto equivalent of one another, with a similar power set (albeit with a different focus). The Inferno demons didn't really have any association with the God Machine Demons, who where the more classical fire an' brimstone type. They arn't really necessarily tied to the concept of "falling", as they arn't God Machine demons. Inferno even has a sidebar dealing with some of this,"Multicultural Demonology", for several explanations of what the demons are/say they are, with one option being that they appear based on the dominant mythology (to the point where an atheist would see them as a mental illness, rather than the satanic form a Christian would see them as).

                              Then there is the fact that some abilities work on Demons tend to work on the entire group. There isn't really much to gain from separating demons into a bunch of different things, any more than there is to split apart Vampires from their various local interpretation. Its confusing enough as it is anyway :P

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                              • #75
                                The subject is still very current. Should I have created a new topic?

                                Universalizing something requires care for the interpretation of what is not circumscribed and therefore the "universalism" is forced. The Crone Circle is an example of a pseudo-universalism that only interprets the old ones about a twentieth-century neo-paganism that has nothing to do with Ancient Polytheistic traditions, even because these traditions are distinct enough for eg Politeismo Indo-European differentiate itself more from the Meso-American than Christianity. And Crone's Ethos is just poor modern neo-age mischief, not something present in ancient traditions. The same thing happened with the Old Hell that placed all the legends within a modern Goetia interpretation shifting from its original meanings and reducing all the demons to representations of the collective psyche like figures and tulpas.

                                On other creatures, it is not because they are beings of other cultures, but because Demons are confused with beings that already have games, like powerful and terrible spirits, beings thresholds, true faes and vampires. The European Fairies, Arabian Geniuses and Japanese Oni for example fit into Faes. Many Demons from Eastern Europe and Japan are clearly spirits.

                                As the Descent absorbs well the Christian Demons, even the Pernostics, but mainly the Platonic and Gnostic ones.

                                The Mesoamerican and East Asian mythologies each fit a type of creature-game of their own to derive from the Demon parameter. And each of these is close to its neighbors enough to have a cultural environment that can be fully represented, as it does with the West and with differences as large as one Western country to another. Soon a couple of new lines of games solve this problem.

                                The Goetic beings already exist in Mago, Inferno ends up being even a redundant book.

                                There are only things Lovecraftianas that should be a Blue Book itself (like the Contagion). And the Original Demons, who are Zoroastrians.

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