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Inferno: 2nd Edition

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  • Deraneo
    started a topic Inferno: 2nd Edition

    Inferno: 2nd Edition

    Now, while it is unlikely to come to pass, let us say there was talk about updating the Inferno book to Second Edition. Yay or nay? Do you think Inferno needs an update? If so, what would you like to see and what would you like changed from the first book? We're already talking Second Sight, so let's give demons some love too, eh?

    Personally, I would love to see more details on the L'enfant Diabolique, which is a concept I see a lot of potential in that was sadly untapped. Maybe not as playable characters but more mechanics and fluff on how they work. Is evil really natural to them, what is their role in cults? Do they actively work with or for Infernal demons, or do they primarily do their own thing? How does the creation of one of these beings even happen when demons are intangible creatures without the potential to produce offspring with most not-Twilight creatures? I really like the idea and would like to see more of it.

  • Ben Linus
    replied
    Thing I wish it was Inferno 2.0

    I very much hope that they will abandon the Goethian approach of the first edition by a Zoroastrian approach in that second. And I expect the two in X to be what their function for Ahriman (based on the 6 Persian archetypes - 1 - Akoman - Corruptors, Seducers, Tempters 2 - Indar - Dark Lords, Proud Rulers, punish their enemies and reward their devotees. "righteous" 3 - Nanghait - Punishers and Torturers 4 - Sawar - They are not Corruptors and Corrupt and Vicious 5 - Tauriz - Agents of Conflict and Destruction 6 - Zariz - Cheaters and Entities with opposing natures or contradictory purposes and will contradictory to its purpose) and the Y in what is this demon (1 - Angels, Djins and Fallen Gods - like the Christian and Muslim version 2 - Demons Reborn as such by Carma - like the Buddhist, Hindu and Taoist versions. - Creation of Ahriman 4 - Destructive Natural Spirits such as Chagas the Negative Entities of Shinto 5 - Dark Gods - Paganism 6 - Deviant Gods - like the rulers of Xibalba 7 - Contaminated Spirits and Supernatural Beings very evil and mighty ones that were destroyed. 8 - Unclaimed Human Souls that fell there and ascended - Spiritist Dragons. 9. Forgotten Gods. 10 - Others, including Goethias things).

    Zoroastrism is unfortunately little used in fiction but Vertigo had done an excellent job of it as the basis for other metaphysics within them. As of the Original Demons criticizing the Fallen Angels, "these angels came and think that they rule here, but they do not know that we are much older than the creator of their rebel leader."

    Ahriman is not the opposite pole to God Machine. A Great Entity of the Dark Mother Level, The Divine Fire, and the Machine God certainly, but something even older than these. Older than anything and indifferent to other great entities but treated by them as Contagion is. And seen as something external.

    It would be interesting until such a thing was dead (as Kamen Rider Black worked, waiting for a successor who will never come). But I do not know if hell would not get too big, just like the contagion and end up becoming a crossover supplement. Against the Created and Corrupted by the Forgotten God. This would refer to the God of Yellow too, where Darkness and Evil precede everything, not all evil came from it, but it was the first thing that arose, a reversal of Christianity in which Sin is disobedience and denial of Light that the Natural State. Here we would have the Darkness is the Natural State, the light is a rare event (which tends to create in new darkness distinct from primordial darkness and averse to it as much as light itself).

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  • Ruger
    replied
    It probably wouldn't have hurt, but I have no idea what the actual policy is :P

    "Universalism" is absolutely necessary in some form, or there would be far too many books and "spare-change" to keep track of. A necromancer reviving the dead and messing around with ghosts and an mage mucking around with time are both distinctive concepts from different cultures, but they both fit under the umbrella for "magic user" letting them both be mages. We don't need a splat just for "Necromancers" and a splat for "Time Witches", or everything gets cut into such small parts that the world gets even more cluttered than it already is.

    It can be because they are beings of other cultures, by that sidebar's reckoning, and not that they are just confused for them. It explicitly says that the GM can make it so that Taoism is right, and that demons made up the other religions for lolz. The thing is that the difference between "evil spirits" and "inferno demons" is fuzzy even from a meta perspective. Back to my example, the Otodo would suggest that Oni are closer to the demons that made the Lucifuge, which may or may not be the Inferno demons. Mortal Remains puts them under the same umbrella, calling the Inferno type "Lesser demons" (and namedropping Whispers) while the God-Machine demons are the "Greater Demons", with "anti-demon" powers that the Lucifuge has working on both of them equally. Inferno has the L' Enfant Diabolique, who's close approximation of the Lucifuge suggest that they would be born of Inferno style demons. The only real way to tell a particularly mean spirit from a demon is to do something that works on one and not the other, and it isn't like we get a lot of examples of that happening in the fluff. Then there is the "Demons" that the Knights of Saint George use, which may or may not be related to either or both.

    2E Goetia arn't really close to Inferno or Christian Demons, in form or function, as "entities of pure thought or concept" who don't usually possess people or do particularly nasty things for no other reason than they are evil beings. They don't really overlap much, aside from being called demon occasionally.

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  • Ben Linus
    replied
    The subject is still very current. Should I have created a new topic?

    Universalizing something requires care for the interpretation of what is not circumscribed and therefore the "universalism" is forced. The Crone Circle is an example of a pseudo-universalism that only interprets the old ones about a twentieth-century neo-paganism that has nothing to do with Ancient Polytheistic traditions, even because these traditions are distinct enough for eg Politeismo Indo-European differentiate itself more from the Meso-American than Christianity. And Crone's Ethos is just poor modern neo-age mischief, not something present in ancient traditions. The same thing happened with the Old Hell that placed all the legends within a modern Goetia interpretation shifting from its original meanings and reducing all the demons to representations of the collective psyche like figures and tulpas.

    On other creatures, it is not because they are beings of other cultures, but because Demons are confused with beings that already have games, like powerful and terrible spirits, beings thresholds, true faes and vampires. The European Fairies, Arabian Geniuses and Japanese Oni for example fit into Faes. Many Demons from Eastern Europe and Japan are clearly spirits.

    As the Descent absorbs well the Christian Demons, even the Pernostics, but mainly the Platonic and Gnostic ones.

    The Mesoamerican and East Asian mythologies each fit a type of creature-game of their own to derive from the Demon parameter. And each of these is close to its neighbors enough to have a cultural environment that can be fully represented, as it does with the West and with differences as large as one Western country to another. Soon a couple of new lines of games solve this problem.

    The Goetic beings already exist in Mago, Inferno ends up being even a redundant book.

    There are only things Lovecraftianas that should be a Blue Book itself (like the Contagion). And the Original Demons, who are Zoroastrians.

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  • Ruger
    replied
    Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
    In addition to the Goetic Demons and the derivatives of the Christian tradition we have two more types of demons.

    The Specimens of East Asian Culture, whether in Buddhism, Shintoism or contrary to the Celestial Hierarchy, can be classified as another beast (as the Fairies and Vampires were dissociated from the Demons).

    And the Zoroastrian Demons, these can not be and they have nothing associated with falling into them. They are the fruits of evil and bring this in their essence to destroy order and creation.

    I think that Hell Second Edition should deal with Ahriman as more than a powerful Goetic spirit. And it treats it as its own, as it is treated in its culture.

    I even think like Mummy has an Egyptian base. Inferno should have Persian base.
    I mean, this post was 3 years old.

    It is generally implied that many of these are the same entities. Lucifuge and the Otodo are basically being the Christian/Shinto equivalent of one another, with a similar power set (albeit with a different focus). The Inferno demons didn't really have any association with the God Machine Demons, who where the more classical fire an' brimstone type. They arn't really necessarily tied to the concept of "falling", as they arn't God Machine demons. Inferno even has a sidebar dealing with some of this,"Multicultural Demonology", for several explanations of what the demons are/say they are, with one option being that they appear based on the dominant mythology (to the point where an atheist would see them as a mental illness, rather than the satanic form a Christian would see them as).

    Then there is the fact that some abilities work on Demons tend to work on the entire group. There isn't really much to gain from separating demons into a bunch of different things, any more than there is to split apart Vampires from their various local interpretation. Its confusing enough as it is anyway :P

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  • Ben Linus
    replied
    In addition to the Goetic Demons and the derivatives of the Christian tradition we have two more types of demons.

    The Specimens of East Asian Culture, whether in Buddhism, Shintoism or contrary to the Celestial Hierarchy, can be classified as another beast (as the Fairies and Vampires were dissociated from the Demons).

    And the Zoroastrian Demons, these can not be and they have nothing associated with falling into them. They are the fruits of evil and bring this in their essence to destroy order and creation.

    I think that Hell Second Edition should deal with Ahriman as more than a powerful Goetic spirit. And it treats it as its own, as it is treated in its culture.

    I even think like Mummy has an Egyptian base. Inferno should have Persian base.

    Leave a comment:


  • Horodrigo
    replied
    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    Thanks for the info, but I was talking about an open discussion between players and developers.

    Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
    In general or about a posible 2nd edition version of Inferno?
    Yes please.

    Originally posted by Thorbes View Post
    As for Inferno, is just wishful thinking on our part, no official anouncement that it is even being considered.
    Aaaah. T_T

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  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by Horodrigo View Post
    There's some place where the devs show us what is being planned?
    The Monday Meetings.

    And the current project page.

    Leave a comment:


  • Madfox11
    replied
    Isn't the whole argument about infernals being the same mechanically speaking as other existing creatures, the same as arguing to stop using all kinds of different mechanics and simply start using the Hunter Vigil dread powers for all opponents regardless of splat book mechanics? It would certainly make it a lot easier for story tellers to use other monsters without the need to buy a large amount of books Then you can make one design book about tempters, whether that is True Fae, the God Machine, Ghosts or Devil-like entities and how to use them in various game lines.

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  • Thorbes
    replied
    In general or about a posible 2nd edition version of Inferno?

    In general you have the Onix Path blogs and the social media accounts.

    As for Inferno, is just wishful thinking on our part, no official anouncement that it is even being considered.

    Leave a comment:


  • Horodrigo
    replied
    There's some place where the devs show us what is being planned?

    Leave a comment:


  • SunlessNick
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Bear in mind that if we get a 2e-esque Inferno, it’s going to be using 2e-esque Vices, which aren’t so much about “doing evil things” as “taking the easy way out”: A character's Vice, on the other hand, is a source of short-term comfort and a distraction from the world. Vice should be the easy way out, the sand he buries his head in, like a bully lashing out to avoid his own fear or an alcoholic drinking to forget. Put another way, your Vice is the mechanism you use to cope with the problems in your life without actually dealing with them.
    This is the best argument for ditching the big seven as far as sings go, because it parallels the weak and shallow nature of Inferno demons. (It does however entail a big overhaul for Possessed's powers).

    Originally posted by MCN View Post
    Chapter 1 - bring the dominions and whisperers into line with the regular spirit rules for manifestation and the like. Update a few of the Numina. Vices unimportant - generally speaking, the only real mechanical effect is what influence it can take, so there's no need to have any description about them. No need for dealing with how Integrity works. Demons never interacted with Morality, so there's no reason for Integrity to change it.
    Agreed.
    Chapter 2 - updates to powers granted. Research rolls and summoning remain the same. Benefits from pacts could use updating, but that's not hard, bringing them in line with current supernatural merits for mortals.
    Agreed.
    Chapter 3 - new rules for the Possessed. You can just keep the seven sins as the branches and just update the Vestments; treat the sins as abstract categories instead of firm ones. Update experience chart. Some beats for making others commit evil acts, maybe, feed the demon. Everything else is fine.
    If the possible sin bases for demons is widened, the powers need to be too; maybe design the powers so they can have an "on/for" slotted into them according to a demon/Possessed's particular sins. Or maybe have it as a setting element that the Possessed do tend to exemplify a narrower set of sins than demons in general, and that's why those became more generally recognised.
    Chapter 4 - Example monsters are examples. L'enfant diablique are "evil lucifuge" served as part of Hunter's line.
    I'd break this in half. Example demons, and example cults and worshippers. Les Enfants can be part of the latter - so can the Belial's Brood and Bale Hounds excised from the second editions of Vampire and Werewolf - perhaps along with changeling and sineater analogues.

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  • Raistlin
    replied
    I would like rules to clarify the effects of trading dots of willpower for power, like making the Fiend less human (or at least more disturbing).
    Also, the pacts mechanics should be more freeform, like a semi-open magic system based on effects associated with cardinal sins.,

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  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    Originally posted by amechra View Post

    You know, I honestly dropped that because I wasn't getting much feedback; all of its mechanics are GMC compatible, though I will have to give them a firm shake-n-bake to make them not awful.

    EDIT: That is to say, I'll approach them and make them workable, if you want me to. (I also wrote up Ephemeral Being rules for Inferno Demons here.)
    That's really Cool.

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  • Raistlin
    replied
    EDIT: That is to say, I'll approach them and make them workable, if you want me to

    Leave a comment:

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