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  • #31
    Edgar McAlister You do realize that not everyone gets access to Resilience, right? Also, the simple fact that someone disagrees with you means that there is some doubt.

    Charlaquin That's... kind of besides the point, really. Giant may have done that in 1e, but that doesn't mean it does that in 2e - quite a lot of merits had their mechanics tweaked (see Allies for an example that changed pretty drastically).

    Meanwhile, Small-Framed has an all-important word "thus". Consider the following two sentences:
    1. "She is Size 4, and thus has one fewer health box."
    2. "She is Size 4, and has one fewer health box."
    Those two sentences can be reworded as follows, without changing their meaning:
    1a. "She has one fewer health box as a result of being Size 4."
    2a. "She has one fewer health box, and is Size 4."
    While Small-Framed is worded like sentence 1, Giant is worded like sentence 2. Another simple example (replacing "one fewer health box" with something more drastic):
    1b. "She is Size 4, and thus has red hair."
    2b. "She is Size 4, and has red hair."
    Does sentence 2b state that she has red hair due to being Size 4? Does 2a imply that she's Size 4 due to having one fewer health level?


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    • #32
      Like I said, I don't disagree that the Merit can be read that way, I'm just confident that it is not the intent. And of course Merits have had their functions change from 1e to 2e, but I think that if the intent had been to change Giant so as to have it give +1 Size and a floating +1 Health on top of that, it would have been worded so as to make that abundantly and unambiguously clear. For example, by changing it to, "She is Size 5, and has +1 Health (in addition to the +1 Health from her increased Size)." A number of development choices make it clear that the 2e books were designed with people familiar with 1e in mind, and I doubt that they would have made such a change without clarifying in the text so as to avoid those familiar with 1e mistakenly assuming it works the same way as the 1e version.

      And, again, I think David would have corrected us in that thread I linked if we had come to the wrong conclusion, since he took the time to comment on the reason for the change in height.


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      • #33
        I am also pretty confident that Giant only gives +1 health, but I would not complain if my ST were to rule it as +2!!

        I also like allowing Giants to have Strength 6 naturally, but by that logic Small-Framed would only have a max of 4, and I feel like that "merit" kind of sucks enough already as it is....

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        • #34
          Originally posted by amechra View Post
          Edgar McAlister You do realize that not everyone gets access to Resilience, right? Also, the simple fact that someone disagrees with you means that there is some doubt.

          Charlaquin That's... kind of besides the point, really. Giant may have done that in 1e, but that doesn't mean it does that in 2e - quite a lot of merits had their mechanics tweaked (see Allies for an example that changed pretty drastically).

          Meanwhile, Small-Framed has an all-important word "thus". Consider the following two sentences:
          1. "She is Size 4, and thus has one fewer health box."
          2. "She is Size 4, and has one fewer health box."
          Those two sentences can be reworded as follows, without changing their meaning:
          1a. "She has one fewer health box as a result of being Size 4."
          2a. "She has one fewer health box, and is Size 4."
          While Small-Framed is worded like sentence 1, Giant is worded like sentence 2. Another simple example (replacing "one fewer health box" with something more drastic):
          1b. "She is Size 4, and thus has red hair."
          2b. "She is Size 4, and has red hair."
          Does sentence 2b state that she has red hair due to being Size 4? Does 2a imply that she's Size 4 due to having one fewer health level?
          I didn't analyse the Resilience in terms of access. I just summarized it is better for a player character from a Vampire player/ST perspective. I don't have any problem with fact that someone disagrees with me. You can play however you want. In the end, the most important thing is to enjoy your game. I guess that the developers' intent was it gives +1 health, due to the fact it worked that way for years in all Vampire editions I can remember (or maybe I'm wrong? Yep I know it is CoD forum, but I'm a big Vampire fan and sometimes forget about other settings people play).
          As it comes to the sentence analyse you're probably right, but IMO it's almost casuistry. The rules are simpler and the intention seems clear to me.
          Anyway the +1 health rule seems okay or slightly week for some characters while the +2 health giant looks overpowered to me, but do as you wish, it's your game
          Last edited by Edgar McAlister; 03-15-2017, 05:16 PM.

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          • #35
            amechra I must admit that the Resilience and Vampire arguments were stupid. I was procrastinating at work and forgot I wrote a post on Chronicles of Darkness forum, not Vampire the Requiem. Shame on me. Nevertheless it's +1 health.

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            • #36
              Does Giant (and Small-Framed, I guess) also apply to alternate forms? Like, is a Giant Uratha also unusually large while in otherwise-normal-wolf Urhan form? And a Small-Framed one is more coyote-sized?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Gellydog View Post
                Does Giant (and Small-Framed, I guess) also apply to alternate forms? Like, is a Giant Uratha also unusually large while in otherwise-normal-wolf Urhan form? And a Small-Framed one is more coyote-sized?
                I would say yes, since the size bonuses (and penalties) apply to your size as is when shapeshifting. So yes, a giant who turns Gauru is gonna be bigger than a regular old Gauru (which is still pretty big!)

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                • #38
                  Seconded that different werewolf forms would also have +1 Size. However, the animal forms from Beast's Skin (Protean 3) would probably not be bigger than usual.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                    Seconded that different werewolf forms would also have +1 Size. However, the animal forms from Beast's Skin (Protean 3) would probably not be bigger than usual.
                    Yeah, werewolf forms apply modifiers to the character's base stats, where Protean 3 replaces the character's base stats with an animal's. So a size 6 Uratha would become a size 5 wolf in Urhan form, but a size 6 Gangrel would become a size 4 wolf in Beast's Skin.


                    Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                    My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                    • #40
                      I'm trying to imagine a Giant in Urhan and a small-framed person in Urshul standing side-by-side. By all rights, they should be the same size, but...

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