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  • What Integrity mean?

    So I run now a third game based on the God Machine Rules Update ( or 2ED Storytelling System, whatever you call it ) and I must say I still do not understand what – exactly – Integrity stat for mortals is measuring. In 1ED Mortality was simple (-ish) – it was your adhering to normal rules of Judeo-Christian society, with constant “sins”. But Integrity is not so simple and I still did not see direct definition of it. Is it mental stability of characters – with lower ends risking the character to join the mental health asylums in World of Darkness? Or is it emotional(-ness) side of character – with lower ends meaning character is “dead inside” and cannot relate to the rest of society? Or any other logical in-setting explanation of the rules?

    To help makes it more visible I have simple questions that should give us clear idea.
    1. What does mean that character have “high” Integrity ( values 8-10 )? Who, typically, will have those ratings? Could criminals have those? Could mental ill patients also?
    2. What does mean that character have “normal” Integrity ( values 5-7 )? Who, typically, will have those ratings? Could criminals have those? Could mental ill patients also?
    3. What does mean that character have “low” Integrity ( values 4-1 )? Who, typically, will have those ratings? Could criminals have those? Could mental ill patients also?
    4. Can mortal character have “none” Integrity ( value 0 )? Who, typically, will have those ratings? Could criminals have those? Could mental ill patients also?
    5. What, exactly, is Breaking Point? Is it stressful situation to character? Would problems in work, for example, be a Breaking Point? Is it dissonance between characters actions and her “inner stability”?
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 06-27-2015, 06:35 PM.


    My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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  • #2
    Integrity is mental stability-it is wholeness and soundness of mind.


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    • #3
      You try to get exact answers on a fairly vague topics. The whole integrity thing is very individual. Could a criminal have a high integrity? Of course! A mentally ill? Probably!

      Integrity is the ability to integrate something you experienced in your worldview and self-concept. A Breaking Point is something that has the potential to damage this two things. For a pampered Child a pulled out gun could be a Breaking Point. For a criminal you need something more radical. But both may have the same integrity rating because it tells how they handle their everyday life, not how they react in stress situations. The roll result tells you, how good they handle the specific stress situation.

      That is why the starting rating is always the same. Someone with a high rating is either so fucked up and knowing, that nothing can or have to question his worldview, or someone who never experience something which changed it.

      A persone with low integrity is maybe highly traumatized or has witnessed the strangest of strange wtf-things in the WoD.

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      • #4
        Most of those questions have not been answered yet, hoping WOD 2.0 covers Integrity with more depth. Violent criminals would tend to be no higher than 7. Anyone mentally ill to the point of being in an asylum would be low integrity. A breaking point is a situation that causes the person psychological stress. If your boss is a jerk, not a breaking point. If your boss sexually harasses you, maybe. If someone walks into the office and starts going from room to room pumping rounds into any person they see, definitely. Integrity seems to be a person's mental stability, sense of self, and ability to deal with their reality. Integrity presents itself as how well a person can function in their life and society. Happy, well-adjusted people are the ones most likely to have high integrity. Normal people have normal integrity. Where a person lives matters. A person from a third world war zone will not have the same breaking points as someone from a wealthy nation. Both could have the same integrity. Wealthy nation person is more likely higher but would suffer breaking points easier.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          So I run now a third game based on the God Machine Rules Update ( or 2ED Storytelling System, whatever you call it ) and I must say I still do not understand what – exactly – Integrity stat for mortals is measuring. In 1ED Mortality was simple (-ish) – it was your adhering to normal rules of Judeo-Christian society, with constant “sins”. But Integrity is not so simple and I still did not see direct definition of it. Is it mental stability of characters – with lower ends risking the character to join the mental health asylums in World of Darkness? Or is it emotional(-ness) side of character – with lower ends meaning character is “dead inside” and cannot relate to the rest of society? Or any other logical in-setting explanation of the rules?
          Integrity measures how well a character copes with trauma. It's therefore personal to each individual character, since different people have different triggers and different coping mechanisms. There is no one answer to "what does a high Integrity character look like?" or "what does a low Integrity character look like?" because it looks different for each person.

          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          • What does mean that character have “high” Integrity ( values 8-10 )? Who, typically, will have those ratings? Could criminals have those? Could mental ill patients also?
          It means the character is exceptionally adept at dealing with traumatic experiences. Any of those people could have high Integrity. If a criminal is so hardened that not even brutal murder phases him, that could be reflected by high Integrity. If a mental patient regularly undergoes therapy and is taking anti-anxiety medication, that might translate to high Integrity. So could a perfectly average, healthy individual who just deals with traumatic stress in healthy ways.
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          • What does mean that character have “normal” Integrity ( values 5-7 )? Who, typically, will have those ratings? Could criminals have those? Could mental ill patients also?
          It means the character has average ability to handle trauma. They are not especially resilient to it, nor especially easily traumatized. As above, criminals and mental patients could certainly have this level of Integrity. In fact, most probably do, unless they've seen or done things that have left them mentally scarred, or have excellent coping mechanisms. Most average folks also have this level of Integrity
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          • What does mean that character have “low” Integrity ( values 4-1 )? Who, typically, will have those ratings? Could criminals have those? Could mental ill patients also?
          It means the character is more easily traumatized than most, or else that they respond especially poorly to traumatic experiences. A criminal with a guilty conscience or a patient suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder could certainly have low Integrity. Although, so could a perfectly average person who's been through some rough experiences, or is simply a bit skittish.
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          • Can mortal character have “none” Integrity ( value 0 )? Who, typically, will have those ratings? Could criminals have those? Could mental ill patients also?
          Certainly. A character with 0 Integrity is still playable, they're just going to have some pretty harsh penalties to Breaking Point rolls, which means they're rather likely to fail or dramatically fail Breaking Point rolls and accumulate lots of detrimental Conditions. Having 0 Integrity just means the character has practically no ability to work through traumatic events. That could mean a criminal who can't keep it together, a mentally ill person with severe PTSD, or an average person who has just had enough of all the crazy shit that goes on in the World of Darkness and stopped even trying to handle it.
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          • What, exactly, is Breaking Point? Is it stressful situation to character? Would problems in work, for example, be a Breaking Point? Is it dissonance between characters actions and her “inner stability”?
          A Breaking Point is, quite simply, a traumatic experience. That could mean anything from extreme stress at work, to an abusive partner flying off the handle, to witnessing a crime, to being in an accident, to experiencing the supernatural. As in real life, different people are traumatized by different events. What might be intensely traumatic to me may not bother you in the slightest, and the opposite might also be true. There are some things that are more or less universally traumatizing, such as extreme violence, and in the WoD, certain supernatural events. But for the most part, it's intensely personal, which is why each individual character is supposed to have their own set of Breaking Points, determined at character creation using the five questions.

          The five questions are a good way to figure out "what would traumatize this character?" The thing she sees as the worst thing she's ever done would certainly be traumatic for her to have to go through again. That goes double for the thing she sees as the worst she could imagine herself doing. The thing she sees as the worst someone else could do would be pretty traumatizing to witness. The thing she sees as the most traumatic she's ever experienced would obviously still be traumatic to have to go through again. And the thing she's forgotten? Why do you think she blocked it out of her memory? Classic response to extreme trauma.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Diggs View Post
            Most of those questions have not been answered yet, hoping WOD 2.0 covers Integrity with more depth.
            They have, actually, a lot of people are just still stuck thinking about Integrity like a karma meter or a sanity stat. It's neither, it's a measure of how well the character handles trauma, and if you read it in that light, it's pretty self-explanatory.

            Originally posted by Diggs View Post
            Violent criminals would tend to be no higher than 7. Anyone mentally ill to the point of being in an asylum would be low integrity.
            That is incorrect. A criminal or a mental patient can have any Integrity value. There is no direct correlation between crime and inability to cope with trauma, and there are plenty of mental illnesses that have no affect on one's ability to handle trauma at all.

            Originally posted by Diggs View Post
            A breaking point is a situation that causes the person psychological stress. If your boss is a jerk, not a breaking point. If your boss sexually harasses you, maybe. If someone walks into the office and starts going from room to room pumping rounds into any person they see, definitely.
            Not necessarily true. Everyone has different responses to different situations. Someone with severe social anxiety may very well be pretty traumatized by their boss being a jerk. Others may be totally un-phased by being sexually harassed. Most people would definitely find the last example traumatizing.

            Originally posted by Diggs View Post
            Integrity seems to be a person's mental stability, sense of self, and ability to deal with their reality. Integrity presents itself as how well a person can function in their life and society. Happy, well-adjusted people are the ones most likely to have high integrity. Normal people have normal integrity. Where a person lives matters. A person from a third world war zone will not have the same breaking points as someone from a wealthy nation. Both could have the same integrity. Wealthy nation person is more likely higher but would suffer breaking points easier.
            More or less. But it's more nuanced than "High Integrity if you're well-adjusted, average Integrity if you're average, low Integrity if you're mentally ill." People are more complex than that.


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            • #7
              Charlaquin's answers are thorough and excellent.

              That said, I disagree that Integrity can reach zero. The question came up elsewhere, and it prompted me to re-read the sections in GMC. The chart for Integrity stops at 1, and the Soulless Condition also stops draining Integrity at 1. If this was unintended, I suspect nWoD 2e core will remedy the situation. Also possible it's been covered on the forums before by a dev. The book points to stopping at 1, though.

              Not that it really matters, I suppose, other than having no mechanical or narrative support for what happens at Integrity 0. As mentioned before, the chart (which shows the penalties for Breaking Points at various Integrity levels) doesn't list anything for 0. Given that you'd probably still want to require rolls for the Conditions gained, that's a consideration to take into consideration if you want Integrity to go to 0.

              But I'm pretty much in full agreement with everything else she said.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Maina View Post
                Charlaquin's answers are thorough and excellent.

                That said, I disagree that Integrity can reach zero. The question came up elsewhere, and it prompted me to re-read the sections in GMC. The chart for Integrity stops at 1, and the Soulless Condition also stops draining Integrity at 1. If this was unintended, I suspect nWoD 2e core will remedy the situation. Also possible it's been covered on the forums before by a dev. The book points to stopping at 1, though.

                Not that it really matters, I suppose, other than having no mechanical or narrative support for what happens at Integrity 0. As mentioned before, the chart (which shows the penalties for Breaking Points at various Integrity levels) doesn't list anything for 0. Given that you'd probably still want to require rolls for the Conditions gained, that's a consideration to take into consideration if you want Integrity to go to 0.

                But I'm pretty much in full agreement with everything else she said.
                You may be right about that. I just assumed 0 was a possible Integrity value, but these observations would seem to indicate that I was mistaken. As far as I know there hasn't been any official word on the matter, so based on this I would go with Integrity bottoming out at 1 for now, until the new 2e core blue book comes out and (hopefully) clarifies.

                Also, thank you.


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                • #9
                  So, basically, Integrity measure how well you are dealing with trauma?

                  For example, Lara Croft, in 2013 remake, had normal rating on start of new Tomb Raider - probably about 7 - had gone through some hellish events like those in video below ( and many Breaking Points ), but in the end she brought back them with Experience and now is hardened to those trauma? That's why she can easily kill people even if before she could not on beginning and it would be her Breaking Point?



                  Well, in Rise of Tomb Raider ( 2nd game in production now ) she fight with the traumas from the events of first game, going on therapy as shown below. So maybe she is more like Integrity 4-5 character, buying back Integrity to be reforged in to dashing archaeologist we know later?



                  Side question - How would her Mysterium Sleepwalker ( ) status unfolds on to her Integrity? One of major plot lines was that from the events on Yamatai and her encounters with supernatural ( and Supernal Magic ) that by the spoilers, is hitting in the Integrity.
                  Last edited by wyrdhamster; 10-04-2015, 06:40 AM.


                  My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
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                  • #10
                    That seems about right. It's also possible that her apparently being hardened was just a facade. Maybe she actually lost Integrity from some of those Breaking Points, but she learned to hide her pain. It would be really nice if there was a Condition for that kind of response... "Calloused" or something. Maybe I'll make a custom one for that.


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                    • #11
                      something like this?

                      Disconnected
                      The shock and horror of the situation causes you to disconnect from your emotions. While this insulates and protects the character against further trauma, it also hampers their ability to relate to or understand others. You are not mechanical, but you lack empathy. The character gains a +1 bonus to subsequent breaking point rolls, but suffers a -2 penalty to Social Rolls that rely on understanding the feelings and motivations of others. If using Social maneuvering (p. 188), the character must open one extra Door.
                      Possible Sources: Facing a breaking point, and in some cases it may be persistent.
                      Example Skills: Empathy, Persuasion, Socialize
                      Resolution: The character must reconnect with their emotions. Rolling an exceptional success on a social roll resolves this condition.
                      Beat: n/a


                      Curios, Relics, and Tomes - A collection of Relics (Cursed and Otherwise)
                      The Horror Lab - A collection of Beasts, Monsters and less definable things.
                      Strange Places - A collection of Dark, Mysterious, and Wondrous Locations
                      Twilight Menagerie - A collection of Ephemeral Entities

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                      • #12
                        Yes, very much like that!


                        Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                        My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                        Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                        • #13
                          Other question connected to the Integrity definition - When human becomes Slasher now? When he hit Integrity 0? Or maybe Slashers can have even very high Integrity, as this stat is only stating you have very strong coping mechanisms - Slashers have very strong coping mechanisms, it's just very bloody and not nice for others ( i.e. killing their victims ).
                          Last edited by wyrdhamster; 10-04-2015, 06:42 AM.


                          My stuff for Scion 2E, CoD Contagion, Dark Eras, VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP
                          LGBT+ in CoD games

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                          • #14
                            That particular question hasn't been officially answered yet. The Slasher template was very heavily invested in the Morality system. Since Integrity has different themes, uses, and mechanics than Morality, trying to attach Slasher-dom to it becomes problematic.
                            A few suggestions to work with until we get something semi-official from a Dev.

                            A) Slasher Code - This would effectively be an extension of the "Hunter's Code" rules option. The Slasher still uses Integrity, but their warped mind might give them breaking points for what we would consider "normal" stimuli, and ignore certain key breaking points (such as murder). A Slasher following his"Slashers Code" might have no problem butchering isolated teenagers, but suffer a breaking point if forced to interact with a large enough gathering of people.

                            B) Inhuman Values - With this option, the Slasher replaces Integrity with an different analog. You could call this trait just about anything evocative (Although I favor calling it Undertaking). This trait would go from 1-10. A low value would be a relatively mundane murderer represented by the "Ripper" achetype, while a high undertaking would transform the killer into the semi (or explicitly) supernatural Scourge.

                            C) No Integrity - This method is best for NPC's. The Slasher has no Integrity to speak of. This prevents them from being effected by Integrity related Conditions (either Positive or Negative). If they are targeted by a power or effect that references their Integrity score,they substitute their Willpower score instead.


                            Curios, Relics, and Tomes - A collection of Relics (Cursed and Otherwise)
                            The Horror Lab - A collection of Beasts, Monsters and less definable things.
                            Strange Places - A collection of Dark, Mysterious, and Wondrous Locations
                            Twilight Menagerie - A collection of Ephemeral Entities

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                            • #15
                              We have to remember there's a distinction between Integrity and Breaking Points. That's the only point where I disagree with Charlaquin. Or, better yet, the point from where I draw my distinct opinions.

                              Integrity is your hability to cope with trauma. Breaking Points are the things that traumatize you to begin with.

                              Tough the game never went through the matter, I think B-Ps should be revised through the game.

                              Lara Croft is a good example of this. If the her Integrity value where the only factor, she wouldn't be less fased by an actual fight after her previous experiences, she would still make Integrity rolls and risk failure every time. What changed over time was her list of Breaking Points. Suddenly a lot of "worse things" become "perfectly common things". Her actual Integrity level isn't at all related.

                              No aditional Condition is needed for that. Just let the player revise his Breaking Points after a session if he wants to.

                              Mental patients are a delicate case, because mental health is a LOT more complex than that. I think one way to handle this IS to most of them be low Integrity. Again, that have NO relation with WHAT traumatizes them, but with how they cope with said trauma. A hardened hunter can be unfazed by extreme violence, but that only means extreme violence isn't a Breaking Point anymore. If his B-P is, lets say, to see a sewer rat, he can be Integrity 3 and have a hard time copping with that.

                              A Slasher have no reason to treat the rules on Integrity differently now. I would say, just give them the same Integrity and let it be. The distinction will be in the Breaking Points.


                              Sorry if I seem too straightforward, or if I don't get you. Autism isn't a forgiving condition.

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